3800 Alky injection Idea

[imported_Ron Vogel]

They need to be specific for E85 fuels though. The FFV's are completely nickle plated.

 

[Mike K]

Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 11 2004, 12:09 PM
They need to be specific for E85 fuels though. The FFV's are completely nickle plated.

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Understood. You have hit the jackpot then.

Re 3/4" fittings: I think I've found why they don't offer much change in performance... There seems to be no continuity or standard in sizes. For example, I have 3/4" barbed end to threaded pipe end fittings here that are no larger in their inner diameter than the 5/8ths inch fittings I have on the car. I also noticed this to be the case when comparing the two at Menards. On the other hand, I have the hose adapters here also and the 3/4" fitting does have a larger inner diameter. Both fittings are 3/4" in size, but one has a lot more material on the diameter. So if we assume the system is only flowing as much as it's smallest point, it's easy to see why the only advantage of larger lines is just increased capacity.

If the above is the case then I see no reason to upgrade. I would rather add a 1/2 gallon canister that has a feed line in it's upper half and a draw line in it's lower half. Make sure it's rated for pressure and you have added effective capacity without worrying about the larger lines getting kinked and without the worry of routing said lines.

Thoughts?

Edit: Now that I think of it, the pump is going to be the point of most resistance on most systems. Though the fluid is under pressure, ID fitting on all of the IC pumps I have seen ranges from 1/2" - 5/8ths". This would negate the need to reason the rest of my thoughts. Again, thoughts?

 

[Mike K]

The 25.3's are rated at 43 psi, so theoretically running them at or around 60psi will raise the ceiling quite a bit, and improve atomization. There are no hard facts out there I can find to fall back on, but with boosted pressure and wide pulsewiths, it is my humble opinion that the 25.3's should support up to 400hp at a 1 to 3 ratio of alky to gas.

Is it safe to assume you will be raising rail pressure and lowering injector pulsewidth?

What kind of ideas did you and Justin talk about?

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

[attachmentid=1227]Well, instead of doing a MAP sensor trigger on, then the pulses dictated by the CPS. The whole shebang could work off the MAP. I was looking at integrated circuit designs, and found a simple one that may fit the bill. It generates it's own pulse (that is adjustible), the Pulsewidth and turn on is done from a varying voltage (MAP sensor). So if you need to tune the alky, it'd be done by firing the injector faster. As boost rises, the MAP will send a hotter voltage to the unit, and fatten up the pulsewiths. The circuit has to be modified to work with what I'm asking it to do, but looks like this...

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

What kind of ideas did you and Justin talk about?

On the HP tuner's wideband version, there are 2- 5v outputs, one of them could be configured to run an injector driver.

Justin really likes the idea of doing a 7th injector, and injecting fuel at the inlet of the SC. It won't have as good as an effect on cooling, but will still cool. A breakout box is still required, but the pump/regulator are a non-issue, because it can be fed by tapping the rail. Some of the turbo Buick guys have had some good sucess with this. I have a feeling something like this mimic's a accelerator pump on a carbed car, so atomization of the fuel during injection isn't required. The large gas droplets will generally not combust, and stay liquid all the way out of the chamber (for the most part). Something like that would really help with part throttle, and transitions to WOT.

 

[superchargedgp]

so you guys are using alcohol injection with the intercooler?


whats the point? isnt i/c itself enough?

 

[Mike K]

Originally posted by superchargedgp@Nov 11 2004, 04:41 PM
so you guys are using alcohol injection with the intercooler?


whats the point?  isnt i/c itself enough?

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It's enough yes, but you can cool the air even more before the intercooler cools it, which means that it's going to cool air that has already been cooled to begin with. Combined, I was able to max out the timing on my 3.0 pulley to 23 degrees with no knock and this was on a tank of gas that was giving me 5 degrees of knock with just the intercooler and base timing. There is a lot of potential here.

Now it's time for injectors... My IPWs were 22.85ms! h34r:

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

Originally posted by superchargedgp@Nov 11 2004, 04:41 PM
so you guys are using alcohol injection with the intercooler?


whats the point?  isnt i/c itself enough?

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I'm too lazy to port my heads, or put in a cam. With the alky, timing, and more boost I'm estimating 40 hp. I'd like to run max timing with a 2.6 pulley. I'd rather throw the big money mods at the trans; where it'll make the most difference for my car at this point.

 

[Caedo]

Ron you should talk to FlyingGTP AKA Mike he actually looked into this like two years ago and had the system running in his car i can vouch for that.

Juan

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

Originally posted by Caedo@Nov 29 2004, 04:49 PM
Ron you should talk to FlyingGTP AKA Mike he actually looked into this like two years ago and had the system running in his car i can vouch for that.

Juan

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Thanks, I may hit him up if I run into snags. I've got my FFV injector on the way, I'm getting a Shuflo "Blaster" pump (45psi) this weekend, and I should be breadboarding the circuit this weekend. I have something that will follow boost up to 15 psi, then shelf off. Turn on will be around 4-5psi. Only problem, I may need to set this up so the user needs to swap injectors to meet engine demand. Everything else will be plug and play. Fortunately, induvidual injectors are cheap (no more than $30). The most expensive part of the system is the pump, which Farm and Fleet carries for $64.00 (and online prolly cheaper). I could always build another PWM circuit to control pump speed to regulate flow, but only if it needs it.

 

[Royalgtp]

MIke K,

What injectors are you getting? LB size?

 

[sweetness]

Originally posted by RoyalGTP@Dec 2 2004, 12:33 PM
MIke K,

What injectors are you getting?  LB size?

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Im curious where you plan on sprayig? A few people have done this by spraying before the S/C. They started to see their teflon coatings peel off. the benefit of course is that the S/C gets cooled down.

If it were me doing this I would put this spray after the intercooler. I have reasons for doing so, but its 2:30 in the morning and i cant construct the thought to type it out. Ill try to remember to reply tomorrow.

BC

 

[syP]

sweetness wanna help build one for me? i am extremely interested in this alky injection

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

Originally posted by sweetness+Dec 4 2004, 02:29 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-RoyalGTP

@Dec 2 2004, 12:33 PM
MIke K,

What injectors are you getting?  LB size?

[snapback]62060[/snapback]​

Im curious where you plan on sprayig? A few people have done this by spraying before the S/C. They started to see their teflon coatings peel off. the benefit of course is that the S/C gets cooled down.

If it were me doing this I would put this spray after the intercooler. I have reasons for doing so, but its 2:30 in the morning and i cant construct the thought to type it out. Ill try to remember to reply tomorrow.

BC

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[/b]

I'm spraying before the SC. I have no teflon left so I don't really care too much about it, although from what I've read you really only have to worry about that with 100% alky. It'll do a better job bafore the SC, it keeps the rotor temps down, and since alcohol is a base, it's slippery. It'll actually help lubricate.

 

[sr71_rgl]

Originally posted by sweetness+Dec 4 2004, 02:29 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-RoyalGTP

@Dec 2 2004, 12:33 PM
MIke K,

What injectors are you getting?  LB size?

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If it were me doing this I would put this spray after the intercooler. I have reasons for doing so,

BC

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[/b]

I'm thinking that spraying the alky into the hotest air stream possible would get a better effect. The spray would vaporize and do its job much better in hot air stream then in cold.

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

Yeah, but the logistics of evenly distrbuting it would be a nightmare. LP3800 posted awhile back about machining a nitrous plate foe under the blower, and that would work, but it would be a hinderance running 6 jets or injectors. Problem is, you'd have to get a stand alone engine management system to spray it sequentially, or you'd have to batch fire it. I don't think batch firing it would be so hot for performance. The motor would fight itself in a high boost application, because all six jets or injectors would still have to be tuned for one cylinder. The only other hope is using the egr, and that's potentially hazardous, since you have to run an input line so close to the crossover.