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Alky injection Idea

  • Thread starter imported_Ron Vogel
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imported_Ron Vogel

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OK, with all this fab going on about alky injection, I started to think about building myself a low cost, mild system to complement my IC. On the way home from work (sitting in traffic), I think I came up with something that will work well, and utilize stock parts and leftovers.

First off, it'l use a stock GTP fuel injector to atomize and control the spray.

Using a signal from the crank trigger to a control unit, the trigger signal will pulse the injector to the revs of the motor. The control unit will have an adjustment to control the pulsewidth of the injector trigger signal.

I figure that I'll use the MAP sensor to send a boost reference to the unit. Have the pump turn on at 0 boost/vac, and have an adjustment to start the injector spray between 1 and 5lbs of boost.

Prolly tap into the washer fluid bottle with a "t" fitting, and run that to some sort of generic 43.5lb fi fuel pump to send to the injector.

The injector holder may take some fabbing, but I think this should work pretty well for the GTP's in general.

Tell me what you think...
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 8 2004, 10:07 PM
First off, it'l use a stock GTP fuel injector to atomize and control the spray.
It all sounded great until here... :) You're going to go static in the injector trying to make this happen. Keep in mind that the injector needs to keep a constant spray which requires a lot more open/ close action than simply feeding one cylinder with atomized fuel. I think you might be overcomplicating this one. Go to an import shop and get a fan spray nozzle and a set of jets. Mess with these until you get the spray you want. These will all cost you probably $20.00 and if I take a look around I think I might actually still have my old "rigged" water injection kit. If I do, you can have the stuff.

Using a signal from the crank trigger to a control unit, the trigger signal will pulse the injector to the revs of the motor. The control unit will have an adjustment to control the pulsewidth of the injector trigger signal.
Again I think you're overcomplicating... :)

I figure that I'll use the MAP sensor to send a boost reference to the unit. Have the pump turn on at 0 boost/vac, and have an adjustment to start the injector spray between 1 and 5lbs of boost.
Instead, why don't you set the output at a constant (with a nozzle and jet) and then have the pump on a vacuum switch.

Prolly tap into the washer fluid bottle with a "t" fitting, and run that to some sort of generic 43.5lb fi fuel pump to send to the injector.
Good idea... I was using a Walbro 155lph pump which was overkill. I toned it down with a small jet and that really helped atomization.

Charles has a supercharger spacer that's relatively thin and made out of phenolic. It's about 3/4 of an inch IIRC and is already tapped for a jet. I picked up his Aquamist water injection kit this evening to play with this winter and was playing with the plate. It looks really well built and would be perfect for your application Ron.
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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This is why I like this idea:
If I spray at a constant, the constant will not account for the increased volume at higher revs. I think tapping the CPS, converting that signal into a square wave to power the single injector would be relitively easy. The hardest thing IMHO would be mounting the injector. To simplify things, building all the functions into one circuit appeals to me, because I'll have less stuff to buy, and it'll make a cleaner install. The injector idea appeals to me, because it's a one way check valve, solenoid, and nozzle all in one unit. I see what you're saying about simplifying things, but I also want a progressive controller that's easy to tune.
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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Wouldn't let me edit; I'll elaborate a bit better...
This is why I like this idea:
If I spray at a constant, the constant will not account for the increased volume at higher revs. You may be misunderstanding how I will use the injector. It will be opening closing with each crank pulse, so it'll cycle faster with higher revs. I think tapping the CPS, converting that signal into a square wave to power the single injector would be relitively easy. The hardest thing IMHO would be mounting the injector. To simplify things, building all the functions into one circuit appeals to me, because I'll have less stuff to buy, and it'll make a cleaner install. The injector idea appeals to me, because it's a one way check valve, solenoid, and nozzle all in one unit. I see what you're saying about simplifying things, but I also want a progressive controller that's easy to tune.
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 9 2004, 08:18 AM
You may be misunderstanding how I will use the injector. It will be opening closing with each crank pulse, so it'll cycle faster with higher revs.
No, I fully understand that which is why I think it's a bad idea unless I'm not grasping how often it's going to fire. Is it going to fire once per revolution?

Figure it this way... if you're running at 6000rpm one injector is firing every 2 revolutions. Now you're trying to pump in enough alky for 6 cylinders through that one injector and assuming it's pulsing once for every revolution, it's going to go static in no time.

Am I grasping the usage right or are you planning on one pulse every revolution. How long of a pulse? I dig the idea of an injector, but I think it might be too much work for the benefit.
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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I talked to Justin, and there are some other options.

Mike, I see what you're saying. On a 4 cycle motor, you're getting 1 fire for 4 crank revolutions. So either triggering off the cam sensor, or dividing the crank signal is the only way to keep from going static. This idea has been tossed around for years, but one of the drawbacks is the corrosive nature of alcohol. Using components from a flexible fuel vehicle could be used, so I'm ditching the idea of using a stock injector.

At this point I need to determine demand of the injector for sizing. The common practice is to set a system at one level of which is demanded at high rpms, so the bottom suffers. That is unless you are using a multi stage controller. My argument is that this will better meet overal demand and also come in smoother, or more progressive than the standard progressive controller that's out there.

I'll do a little more research and repost, got some studying to do...
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 9 2004, 01:23 PM
I talked to Justin, and there are some other options.

Mike, I see what you're saying. On a 4 cycle motor, you're getting 1 fire for 4 crank revolutions. So either triggering off the cam sensor, or dividing the crank signal is the only way to keep from going static. This idea has been tossed around for years, but one of the drawbacks is the corrosive nature of alcohol. Using components from a flexible fuel vehicle could be used, so I'm ditching the idea of using a stock injector.

At this point I need to determine demand of the injector for sizing. The common practice is to set a system at one level of which is demanded at high rpms, so the bottom suffers. That is unless you are using a multi stage controller. My argument is that this will better meet overal demand and also come in smoother, or more progressive than the standard progressive controller that's out there.

I'll do a little more research and repost, got some studying to do...
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Ron, doesn't:

1 complete revolution = Intake stroke/ compression stroke
next complete revolution = power stroke (injector fires)/ exhaust stroke

This means that it would be firing every other revolution... I was thinking every 4th at first too and went back to edit my post to say 2. It's these simple things that throw me off.
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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It fires only once, but goes up and down twice. This did, make me re-think something. Even though it only fires once, the valves on the cyliders not firing will still be opening. So, if I need to satisfy a 1 to 3 ratio of alky/gas, that needs to be at least doubled to meet the demand. Looks like an injector in the 30+#/hour range needs to be used, but that's iffy even. The pumps I'm leaning towards are 12v agricultural sprayer pumps; mostly because they have automatic shutoff when a preset pressure is set. They stay around 60psi, so need to figure out a given injector rating at 60psi, not 43.5.
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 9 2004, 03:07 PM
It fires only once, but goes up and down twice.
Correct. 1 up & down = 1 revolution though which would indicate that the injector fires every other revolution or every 4th stroke.
 

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Ron,

The problem with using the pressure switch built into the pump is that is causes pulsation. I run the alkycontrol.com progressive controller on my turbo regal and with the pressure cutoff switch active (I didn't turn up the pressure switch enough) you could actually see the effect of the alky pulsating by looking at my fluttering maf readings in 3rd gear. In the long run, that progressive controller may be the most cost effective way to go considering the range of adjustments you can make in the cabin.

Mike
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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Fortunately, the E85 injectors are rated to flow higher, since more volume is needed to create the same energy during combustion. Unfortunately, I can find the injectors, but not what they are rated to flow.
After looking through several tech pages, I did find a safety issue...
First a return system is a bad idea with alky; it'll foam up and release more flammable vapor.
Second, an "in-tank" pump cannot be used due to an explosion hazard.

I found a nice pump, can source injectors, the tubing is easy...now it's just the electronics, and the spacer that needs to be tackled.

I'll have to experiment with injector sizing, but the FFV injectors are only like $20-30 a peice, I think it's safe to say firing 1/2 the crank speed would be a good compromise.
 
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Originally posted by VIN7@Nov 9 2004, 04:25 PM
Ron,

The problem with using the pressure switch built into the pump is that is causes pulsation.  I run the alkycontrol.com progressive controller on my turbo regal and with the pressure cutoff switch active (I didn't turn up the pressure switch enough) you could actually see the effect of the alky pulsating by looking at my fluttering maf readings in 3rd gear.  In the long run, that progressive controller may be the most cost effective way to go considering the range of adjustments you can make in the cabin.

Mike
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Sorry, missed this one while I was typing. May have a solution for this...
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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Mike, it's almos scary I had to look this up...
4 strokes/up down twice, each motion is considered stroke.
intake-compression-ignition-exhaust

Whew...sometimes it's easy to forget the basics!
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 9 2004, 04:49 PM
Mike, it's almos scary I had to look this up...
4 strokes/up down twice, each motion is considered stroke.
intake-compression-ignition-exhaust

Whew...sometimes it's easy to forget the basics!
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lol don't worry... I was second guessing myself in my first post also. :)

Nonetheless, back on topic, I got my alky system installed this afternoon. I just decided to use the windshield washer fluid resivour as a source and have it injected through the throttle body.

So far it seems fun but I won't really use it until I get into the 12's without it this weekend (hopefully!).
 
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I prolly won't get the alky in until spring, but it's my nature to tinker. I'd like to make a kickass system, that works reliably, and it somewhat innovative. Hey, if it doesn't work out; fine...I don't mind, it's all a learning experience.
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 9 2004, 08:58 PM
I prolly won't get the alky in until spring, but it's my nature to tinker. I'd like to make a kickass system, that works reliably, and it somewhat innovative. Hey, if it doesn't work out; fine...I don't mind, it's all a learning experience.
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Boy oh boy is it a blast. I was trecking around with 22 - 23 degrees of timing testing it out. I got a couple degrees of throttle tip-in knock (since the MAF isn't reading the extra oxygen coming in I would presume) but then it was 0 degrees to redline and a big smile on my face. :)
 
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fastcash

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this alky injection,...is it good for the motor?...does it increase hp?...can you break it down mike? (laymens terms..
 
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Originally posted by fastcash420@Nov 9 2004, 10:16 PM
this alky injection,...is it good for the motor?...does it increase hp?...can you break it down mike? (laymens terms..
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Take some rubbing alcohol, pour it on your hand, then wave it around...you'll get it real quick! If you use water/alky mix, the water turns to steam and not only has a cleaning effect, but produces an oxygen rich mix, that makes your motor more tolerant of "bad air"; lending to consistancy at the track.
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel+Nov 10 2004, 08:00 AM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-fastcash420
@Nov 9 2004, 10:16 PM
this alky injection,...is it good for the motor?...does it increase hp?...can you break it down mike? (laymens terms..
[snapback]59842[/snapback]​
Take some rubbing alcohol, pour it on your hand, then wave it around...you'll get it real quick! If you use water/alky mix, the water turns to steam and not only has a cleaning effect, but produces an oxygen rich mix, that makes your motor more tolerant of "bad air"; lending to consistancy at the track.
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Don't wait for spring Ron. Play now. :) I'm going to finally disconnect the IC today so I can get my 3/4's lines. I want to see how the water injection does by itself.

So far this is a fun toy. If I pull a 12 with the 3/4'" lines on the IC, I'll put the fuse back in and start messing with the water injection afterward and see how much faster I can make the car go.
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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I didn't see much of a change with the 3/4" lines personally. What I did get with them was a bit more system capacity, and it takes longer to heat saok the system. If you need it, I have a bunch of 3/4" hose left over...it may be enough to do your system. It's the Black Goodyear stuff, very high quality.
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 10 2004, 11:44 AM
I didn't see much of a change with the 3/4" lines personally. What I did get with them was a bit more system capacity, and it takes longer to heat saok the system. If you need it, I have a bunch of 3/4" hose left over...it may be enough to do your system. It's the Black Goodyear stuff, very high quality.
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That's what I'm using currently. I'm just trying to find some 3/4's Inch Barbed fittings. All my sources are out.
 
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imported_Ron Vogel

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I found some 1/2" pipe-3/4" barbs at Menard's in Schaumburg? on Irving park Rd. I didn't pick them up there, decided to go to the one by me in Bolingbrook and they didn't have them. So they might not all have them. I got some barbed fittings through Enco supply instead. The 3/4" stuff doesn't bend gracefully though. You may want to use some molded heater hose tubing from an auto parts store. I routed mine different now. I modified my coil bracket, to shift the coils down a few inches, so the hoses can go over the open area that created. It's a pretty sharp bend that way though.
 
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OK, from my calculations (based on 250-300 hp), a good compromise is to use a 25.33 lb/hr injector. To my surprise and delight, the Ford Ranger and Taurus 3.0L FFV's have 25.3 injectors. That's about the biggest I can find out of the OEM's. From there you need to go with a Bosch Indy car injector, they are also compatible with alcohol. There are 2 major drawbacks to the indy injector (OK there are 3). 1st they start their sizing at 1500cc's, or about 142.85 lb/hr; that's a big gap between them and the 25.3's. 2nd I so far can only find them in Austrailia (Only been looking for a few hours though). 3rd, they are very expensive. The OEM 25.3's are under $30 a piece, the Indy's are close to $300 a piece.

The 25.3's are rated at 43 psi, so theoretically running them at or around 60psi will raise the ceiling quite a bit, and improve atomization. There are no hard facts out there I can find to fall back on, but with boosted pressure and wide pulsewiths, it is my humble opinion that the 25.3's should support up to 400hp at a 1 to 3 ratio of alky to gas.
 

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Originally posted by Ron Vogel@Nov 11 2004, 10:55 AM
OK, from my calculations (based on 250-300 hp), a good compromise is to use a 25.33 lb/hr injector. To my surprise and delight, the Ford Ranger and Taurus 3.0L FFV's have 25.3 injectors. That's about the biggest I can find out of the OEM's. From there you need to go with a Bosch Indy car injector, they are also compatible with alcohol. There are 2 major drawbacks to the indy injector (OK there are 3). 1st they start their sizing at 1500cc's, or about 142.85 lb/hr; that's a big gap between them and the 25.3's. 2nd I so far can only find them in Austrailia (Only been looking for a few hours though). 3rd, they are very expensive. The OEM 25.3's are under $30 a piece, the Indy's are close to $300 a piece.

The 25.3's are rated at 43 psi, so theoretically running them at or around 60psi will raise the ceiling quite a bit, and improve atomization. There are no hard facts out there I can find to fall back on, but with boosted pressure and wide pulsewiths, it is my humble opinion that the 25.3's should support up to 400hp at a 1 to 3 ratio of alky to gas.
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Ron, I have some SHO dual spray 24.6lb injectors here. You're welcome to a couple if you want em. :) The is one of the best atomizing injectors you can find.
 

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