example of socialism in the classroom
- Thread starter Yaj Yak
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I believe, if my memory serves me right, roughly 1/3 of that 50% do not pay payroll taxes. We have a spending issue in the US, that's the issue. Congress does not know how to live within their means.
My dad owned a small biz and when he was working (retired), he’d pay enough taxes to buy a high end Porsche every year. He’d also have to pay for his “payroll” taxes twice, like social security, for example. What higher taxes did for him was push him to hire a good accountant to find the loopholes so more money went into his coffers and not the Federal Government. Why should his hard earned dollars be pissed away by the dolts in Congress and the State of Illinois? Did they wake up at 3:30 AM in the morning to drive to the airport to fly out to meet a client? Did they take the risks he did to start a business when you had a young family? They didn’t create his success and he surely wasn’t getting back from the Government what he put in. I doubt you are either. Anyone that thinks that taxation is an issue is blinded by the fact that we have politicians that think our money is THEIR MONEY and blindly spend it. If you ran a business like the Government, you’d be bankrupt facing lawsuits from creditors. The Government doesn’t play by the same rules.
The argument is about taxation in the form of redistribution of wealth (socialism). That's the discussion. I mentioned that he was trying to level the playing field. It's not level right now. You think it's the bloodsucking hippies sucking the system dry and I think it's the blood sucking corporations. The corporations are fucking with exponentially more money than even the 1/3rd of the 50% not paying any tax and they have lobbyists. They are in the pockets of almost all politicians, they legally change election outcomes, they are devoid of almost all liability.
Kudos to your dad for for exploiting all the loopholes available to him. I do the same, legally but that's not to say that I think it's fair. Again, you're ignoring the fact that I pay proportionately less than most here and make more than most here. How is that fair? It's not. If you want to argue about the government spending less, great but that's not the discussion here and it doesn't change the argument.
You're really throwing the baby out with the bathwater though. If someone is making so little that they don't pay ANY tax they aren't working with a living wage so I'm fine with them not paying tax so long as they are working. They are a benefit to the economy. The fact that this many Americans are working in jobs that pay so little that they don't pay taxes is the bigger problem in my eyes.
If you want to argue that we need to spend less, fuck yes. I agree. But saying that the social programs need to get chopped too? I'm not on board. We waste entirely too much money in other areas for me to start saying we need to pull it out of the pockets of those that have the least.
So what do you call creating social/entitlement programs and then calling on the rich to pay for it? That’s socialism to me.
I agree that the tax loopholes need to be tightened, but taxation isn’t the problem. We have a spending problem that needs to be corrected before we address the taxation side. The Government will just spend more money. Look what happened in Illinois. The income tax was increased 66% and we still have HUGE deficits. They raised income taxes without making meaningful cuts.
The “rich” already pay their share. Look at the IRS data.
If you feel bad about not paying enough taxes, please write the treasury a check as a donation. I’d like to see a picture of you in front of that check! Maybe Warren Buffett will follow suit.
So they aren’t paying their fair share? Which one is it?
Every facet of Government needs to be examined and the waste and fraud need to be removed. The US Government needs to do more with less just like all the evil corporations did over the last four years.
You need "socialism" to some degree. You can't tell the weakest among us to go pound sand. It sucks that some take advantage of the system but instead of making sweeping program eliminations we need to figure out how to better police the current systems as well as making them more efficient. What's the saying though... Something along the lines of "the measure of a civilization is how it treats it's weakest members".
Agreed.
lol, you make a statement without any data, empirical or otherwise and expect it to be taken as gospel. I'm giving you first hand evidence of someone that makes more than many and pays proportionately less. The more money you make the easier it is to pay proportionately less. We're looking to pull money out of the pockets of those who can least afford it so that the people who can most afford it don't have to foot that expense. FUCK THAT. Fuck this country if that's what we stand for.
As a society we've demonstrating that we SUCK at taking care of our sick, elderly and poor. Without someone forcibly taking public money and helping these people they would be exponentially worse off. I'm so sorry that has to be the government. Instead of fixing the problems with the system you just want to eliminate it. Forgive me but I find that to be pathetic.
Completely agree.
That’s not how this country was founded. As you remember, this country was started because of taxation without representation. Thomas Jefferson wrote “To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
Our founding father believed in a limited scope of the Federal Government, whereas liberals and Obama believe that we are stupid and cannot decide what to do without Government intervention. Our founding fathers were brilliant and tried to setup a Government that rewarded hard work and granted liberty. This is slowly being eroded.
No I assume that if we are having a debate on taxation one can easily find the data via the IRS. That’s why I said look at the IRS data. Google it if you think that I am making numbers up out of thin air. What you’ve fail to mention is that with increased taxation business owners look to find ways to keep the same lifestyle. If the Government increases taxes 20%, well that’s 20% out of small business owners pockets. What are they going to do? If I owned a business, I’d look to outsource or move my operations to a friendly business atmosphere.
As for taking care of the sick, poor, and elderly. I agree that’s sad, but it’s also not the sole role of the Government. I can argue that the private sector via Charities can handle that need. As a country we give so much to other countries in terms of charitable donations. We could simply scale that back internationally and take care of our own domestically.
I guess this debate is more about the role of Government. My opinion is that the Government has caused many of the issues at hand (economy, housing boom/bust, outsourcing, etc.) and that to “level the playing field” we need to get the US Government out of areas where they shouldn’t be.
Until I get a portion of Mikes money that I didnt earn, there really isnt socialism.
I think Mike gave me a dollar once...
In every aspect of life we evolve, we get smarter, we adapt to our surroundings and, almost without exception, each generation is more intelligent than the last. There are two holdouts to this though:
1. Religious people willing to ignore everything that contradicts their beliefs
2. People that believe the constitution is an infallible document.
What made these men so great, so smart? Didn't they slaughter a bunch of people? Where was their fucking liberty? Get real. They were fallible humans just like you and I. They had great ideas and found the country on solid principles, much of which it still stands on now.
And what does it matter anyhow? People interpret these documents how they want to anyhow. Fools sit and argue about what the right to bear arms meant hundreds of years ago as if it has ANY bearing on our current society. They would rather live by tenets of men who have been dead for hundreds of years then think for themselves and do what's best for society NOW. This is the mark of a foolish society, unable to think on it's own, tethered to the beliefs of those who could never fathom the world and it's problems as they exist now.
Of course you would. That's why business' move to Delaware. You won't move out of the country if you're a small business though and 99% of small business' couldn't move if they wanted to so it's a moot point. Likewise, if you're a small business in the US you're likely reliant on US citizens for your business, citizens that have exponentially more money than other countries. So go move your cell phone case business to a lower taxed country and watch your sales tank... But hey, at least you're getting taxed less now!
Yes, just like we take care of our sick. Oh no insurance? Fuck off and die. We can't make money off of you. PA-THET-IC
Go through your history book and take a close look at the industries that are now regulated. Look at how corrupt just about all of them were when the free market was left to it's own devices. Humans are greedy, evil things when placed into a corporate structure. If there is one thing that has been solidly displayed in history it's that a truly free market CAN NOT exist. It just can't.
They took enormous risked and started a country. What have you done (or even myself)? What has Washington done? Obama has killed many people and taken away our liberties. So did Bush. The constitution is the basis for our Government, yes it evolves but it is not a document that should be used as toilet paper. For a man that is a “constitutional scholar”, Obama has trampled over it. Simply read NDAA and look at what powers it grants. Oh and BTW, Obama said he would veto it.
If you don’t understand why it matters, you might want to purchase a US history book.
I would simply move to a pro business state and outsource labor. Companies have been doing this for years and will continue to until the business climate changed. I can find resources in Asia pretty easily.
We have arguably the best medical system in the US. If you are old/ poor, we have Medicade/Medicare.
Yes, there was a time when regulation was needed when child labor was present for example. There was also a time when unions were relevant. There is a place for regulation, but SMART regulation. The administration has pushed for additional stupid regulation and bills like Dodd/Frank are short sighted (Both Dodd and Frank should be in orange jump suits).
One stupid regulation is the airline rules that went into effect yesterday. For example, it states that passengers now have up to 24 hours to cancel their flights. Why should the Government dictate private companies term/conditions? If a flight is full and they had to turn away passengers and cannot fill that “cancelled” seat, they are losing money.
Lastly, I am still waiting for you to post your check to the treasury since you feel like you need to pay more taxes! Actions speak louder than words.
First off, the fact that I've not done anything great doesn't preclude me from being able to criticize our founding fathers or people that worship them. By today's standards these would be considered horrible men yet history paints them with a very favorable brush and acknowledges only their good.
The rest of your paragraph is a deviation from the discussion. We weren't discussing Obama's trampling of the constitution or Bush's and it's truly irrelevant to the point I was making.
Great, you'd still be in the country though paying income tax. People move their business' to other states right now. That's nothing new. Outsource labor? It's not done because of taxes; it's done because labor costs in other countries are exponentially cheaper than they are here. We used to sell a particular item on our site that cost me $40 a pop. Recently I investigated bringing the particular item back and we shopped it to Chinese manufacturers: $11.00 per piece. A few of our best selling items are outsourced to China because no one in the country can touch it. That's not a tax issue. That's a work environment/ human rights issue. Taxes won't help us compete with free/ cheap labor in other countries. Perhaps Tariffs but not taxes.
Ask the doctors if they're getting paid on that great system. Look at the amount of doctors that won't take medicare/ medicaid patients because they don't get paid or the ones that take them and just consider it a free service. Likewise, I'd argue that any system in which businesses are providing healthcare on a for profit basis is not the "best".
I'm not talking about child labor. I'm talking about collusion, unfair distribution of resources, monopolies, the entire banking/ lending industry, etc. Child labor would not be tolerated in this day and age so it's a ridiculous parallel to draw.
Nonetheless, I don't disagree with you. I just disagree with your solution. I say fix and limit it; you say eliminate it. I say fix and limit government programs that are wasteful and broken; you say eliminate them. Everybody loves to toss around the elimination of government programs but then offers no solution or alternative to the program they so proudly proclaim to want to eliminate. The public sector is not a solution to most of these problems too. Doing the job efficiently is the answer.
This above all else demonstrates that you just don't get it. Why would I do that? What reasonable person would expect me to? Like everyone else I want to pay the least in taxes. You make the same mistake so many others do in asserting that because I don't think it's fair that I pay less as a % in taxes then people that make less than me that I want to pay more. I don't. I'm merely indicating that it is not fair that those that make less money than me are taxed at a higher effective rate than I am. If you take that to mean that I want to cut the government a check you're either clueless, dense or both.
Yes, I would be paying income taxes. Taxes also factor into the overall cost of doing business. If you raise my taxes 10% well then I as a business owner need to figure out a way to cut my costs. This isn’t rocket science here. Let’s say you are paying J. Smith here in the good old USA $20 an hour to manufacture a widget. Well because of taxes going up and me wanting to maintain your lifestyle, I now need to look at ways to drive cuts to the bottom line. One way is to pay J. Patel in India $8 an hour to do the same job. So instead of J.Smith paying income taxes, he would then be collecting unemployment from the US Government for some period of time. Like I said common sense.
And this is why I say that we need to create efficiencies in Government. Healthcare professionals won’t take Medicare/Medicaid because they don’t get reimbursed in a timely manner. The Government sets the rates and then doesn’t pay on time. So the company effectively gets screwed. This happened to a good friend of mine’s company. The State of Illinois is a deadbeat and he was waiting 6+ months to get paid without being able to plan for that since the government set the rates. Any other business could pad their costs to account for the delay in payment. See why I think that the Government is f’d up? How do you run a business with those obstacles?
I think you are skewing my position in that I believe that there is zero role of Government in the private sector. My position is that there is TOO much regulation and our Government is directly to blame for many of the huge issues that we have in this country. For example, the Government meddled in housing for all thru fiscal policy, GSE’s, and even deceit (that’s why I say Frank and Dodd should be in jumpsuits) which caused this crisis. I am all for a leaner Government that works for the people. Right now the current admin believes that spending which results in a larger scope of Government is the solution. It’s not and I think we both agree with that.
I get it. You are trying to stir the pot, but don’t believe in the position you are presenting. Just like Warren Buffett saying that he doesn’t get taxed enough…..Where is his check? He could easily spare $500 million to donate to the Treasury to prove his point and prove that he has skin in the game to the public. Just like you, he doesn’t have skin in the game; It’s simply the old saying “doing as I say and not as I do”. Berkshire is in a dispute with the IRS owing $1 BILLION in taxes. And just to clarify, I know that you wouldn’t donate above and beyond to the Treasury since that’s stupid.
I’ve said this before….I am not adverse to tax increases, but a tax increase is simply more money for Washington to spend. What needs to happen first is that we cut the fat, balance the budget, and tie tax increases to long term metrics. If we have a surplus, that’s not a ticket to spend but rather pay down our debts. Washington must learn to live within their means before I am on board with shelling out more of my hard earned money. That’s what “leveling the playing field” is all about.
lol, you don't own a business, do you? You think that taxes being raised is the cause of business' outsourcing employees? LOL So they have the opportunity to do this now but they're just going to wait for the government to take more of their money before they do it... It just doesn't work like this. A company wouldn't make a move like this solely because of a change in tax liability; they make a decision like this to save money, regardless of tax liability.
You fix it, as I suggested. You don't eliminate it.
Correct.
It's not do as I say not as I do... If the system was fixed and my overall tax liability increased I would accept that. Again, it is NOT fair that I can take my money out of my business at a lower tax rate than Joe Schmoe taking a 50k / year salary. That's not fair and the more money you deal with the more the numbers get skewed. I know others that agree that are in business as well. One of my competitors has exponentially more money than me and he argues for the same point.
I'm not trying to stir the pot either. I genuinely believe this. I used to be all the way over on the right and the more I experience, the more I see that it's just all greed which is ironic because the right contains proportionately more bible thumpers. I suppose that's a different conversation though.
I agree with that... I'm not sure if that's what leveling the playing field is all about but I do agree otherwise.
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Motorola, Sears, CME, Caterpillar say you’re wrong. To answer your question, I don’t run my own business but run my own segment of the business here at work. All of these companies were starting to look at options to decrease their tax liability. Increasing taxes means decreased profits going to the bottom line. Of course companies are going to try to save money to make up for the added tax value. Again, I hate to beat a dead horse but this is common sense.
A lot of programs need to be eliminated as part of the “fix”.
So you won’t do it voluntarily just like Buffett, but only when forced to like everyone else. We are taxed from birth to death and they keep increasing. For example, what good did the 66% income tax in IL do? Springfield wonders why people and jobs are moving out of this State. I wonder why?
Motorola, Sears, CME, Caterpillar say you’re wrong. To answer your question, I don’t run my own business but run my own segment of the business here at work. All of these companies were starting to look at options to decrease their tax liability. Increasing taxes means decreased profits going to the bottom line. Of course companies are going to try to save money to make up for the added tax value. Again, I hate to beat a dead horse but this is common sense.
A lot of programs need to be eliminated as part of the “fix”.
So you won’t do it voluntarily just like Buffett, but only when forced to like everyone else. We are taxed from birth to death and they keep increasing. For example, what good did the 66% income tax in IL do? Springfield wonders why people and jobs are moving out of this State. I wonder why?
i think the story is fake but the points ain't bad. the two things you need to know about economics:
1. incentives matter
2. there's no free lunch
as far as some of these other posts; i don't support a flat tax, not unless we can shrink the government to ron's size of long ago and have that tax be 0%. i think a fair tax is appropriate where it increases upwards as people make more money. i would make it simple and not add these deductions or favors here or there for industries that lobby for them. f that.
i think we are wealthy enough to create a system that does get health care to all. however i would do it as a last resort of payment, like food stamps are done for food. health care has a lot of room for more markets and freedom to work. any program that ignores this is stupid.
1. incentives matter
2. there's no free lunch
as far as some of these other posts; i don't support a flat tax, not unless we can shrink the government to ron's size of long ago and have that tax be 0%. i think a fair tax is appropriate where it increases upwards as people make more money. i would make it simple and not add these deductions or favors here or there for industries that lobby for them. f that.
i think we are wealthy enough to create a system that does get health care to all. however i would do it as a last resort of payment, like food stamps are done for food. health care has a lot of room for more markets and freedom to work. any program that ignores this is stupid.
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