anti-seize on lug nuts?

rocket5979

Gearhead
Nov 15, 2005
6,576
18
Round Lake, IL
what's your factory recommendation and what did you switch to?

how'd you find the coefficient of friction?

my bro had this stuff in the garage. Specialty Lubricants - Anti-Seize : Permatex® Anti-Seize Lubricant

in the equation i basically changed c from .2 to .165 and came up with my 74 from 89.




Since input torque is derived from required clamping force and the major diameter of the fastener, to offer a "factory torque value" one would need to know a few things first; mainly the bolt major diameter which differs from vehicle to vehicle. A bolt with a larger major diameter will take more tensile load before breaking; assuming the same metallurgy as a smaller bolt. Metallurgy also comes into play as well; though I won't open that can of worms. Even the structure of the hub itself, the intended usage/loading of the wheel/tire/axle combo all dictate what clamping force that assembly CAN take, and also what clamping force it NEEDS in order to hold everything together. For shits and giggles, if you provide me with your stud diameter and metallurgy, I can provide you with a fairly accurate maximum clamping force that the fastener itself can take before it exceeds the proportional stretch limit; and thus derive a maximum axial torque based upon that and your lube.

Yeah, I have that same antiseize in my garage too, and was curious what the K value was for it, but could not find anything stated implicitly. There may be some way to derive a k value from some of the other information shown for it, but I didn't want to bother putting in the effort when it is not something that critical to get 110% right.

Cliffs/TLDR: I suggest just keeping things simple and adjusting the torque value based upon the new friction coefficient, like what you did. That is a more accurate figure to act upon than the one-size-fits-all -25% rule of thumb. I think your derived torque figure of 74lb/ft based upon the averaged ~.165 k-value for anti-seize lubes should be well within the ballpark and "good enough for government work", as we say. ;)

NOTE: Keep in mind that does assume that only kinetic friction value has changed and NOT metallurgy of the stud itself! Different metallurgy will stretch differently and ultimately fail at different points as well. I only mention this because I thought I read something about titanium lugs being used, which I have no idea come stock on some vehicles or not.
 

sickmint79

I Drink Your Milkshake
Mar 2, 2008
27,081
16,901
grayslake
Since input torque is derived from required clamping force and the major diameter of the fastener, to offer a "factory torque value" one would need to know a few things first; mainly the bolt major diameter which differs from vehicle to vehicle. A bolt with a larger major diameter will take more tensile load before breaking; assuming the same metallurgy as a smaller bolt. Metallurgy also comes into play as well; though I won't open that can of worms. Even the structure of the hub itself, the intended usage/loading of the wheel/tire/axle combo all dictate what clamping force that assembly CAN take, and also what clamping force it NEEDS in order to hold everything together. For shits and giggles, if you provide me with your stud diameter and metallurgy, I can provide you with a fairly accurate maximum clamping force that the fastener itself can take before it exceeds the proportional stretch limit; and thus derive a maximum axial torque based upon that and your lube.

Yeah, I have that same antiseize in my garage too, and was curious what the K value was for it, but could not find anything stated implicitly. There may be some way to derive a k value from some of the other information shown for it, but I didn't want to bother putting in the effort when it is not something that critical to get 110% right.

Cliffs/TLDR: I suggest just keeping things simple and adjusting the torque value based upon the new friction coefficient, like what you did. That is a more accurate figure to act upon than the one-size-fits-all -25% rule of thumb. I think your derived torque figure of 74lb/ft based upon the averaged ~.165 k-value for anti-seize lubes should be well within the ballpark and "good enough for government work", as we say. ;)

NOTE: Keep in mind that does assume that only kinetic friction value has changed and NOT metallurgy of the stud itself! Different metallurgy will stretch differently and ultimately fail at different points as well. I only mention this because I thought I read something about titanium lugs being used, which I have no idea come stock on some vehicles or not.

yep that wheel is all different now with arp studs and ti lugs. i did look up the major diameter to toss into my spreadsheet for the m12 1.25 size when i came up with my 74 so i'd like to think i'm sitting in the right spot.
 

rocket5979

Gearhead
Nov 15, 2005
6,576
18
Round Lake, IL
@ discount tire of you anti seized lugs you were automatically fired. Seen it happen. Same category as not buffing corrosion off wheel hubs.

Just saying

Perhaps it isn't the wisest idea to base your opinion off of the termination practices of a company whose average employee intelligence level doesn't even break 100. Probably not a lot of engineering thought happening in a place like that at the shop level; let alone the fact that it would be easy to take a policy like that out of context when actually determining why it was put in place. After all, having a bunch of grease-monkies adjusting torque specs and doing algebra, even basic stuff, probably isn't a smart idea. In that case, it would be better to play it safe and "Just Say No".

You'd have to be an idiot to put anti sieze on lugs

Really? Please explain, since you obviously have such a strong and technically informed opinion on the matter.
 

DEEZUZ

NO PUKESTERS
TCG Premium
Nov 20, 2008
82,949
95,888
NWI
I really wasn't basing it off of anything, I was just stating rules that an extremely profitable and extremely safe operating corporation has put in place. really has nothing to do with the intelligence level of the monkey that's installing the wheel end...

My honest opinion of it is if the car isn't going to see daily driver/highway status, and it's more than likely a track car where you'll be switching wheels out every other weekend, then it's probably ok to use to save the life of the lugs and studs.

Do I use it on studs, hell no, have I ever nope...
 

Turbocharged400sbc

3800 & 4T80E > ALL
TCG Premium
Jun 16, 2007
32,652
16,139
hangover park IL
thoughts:

any fastener with repeated removals should be lubricated.

lubricants affect clampload at a given Tq

TTY blows balls but its good for mass production

taper seat lugs can swedge in the threads on the tip, typically more common with steel rims it can happen with steel insert alum wheels

remember the oem's are probably figuring 50-100 lug I/R's over the cars warranty life.

some of us can do that in a couple years.

my gramps put a small dab of grease on his studs when needed for 50+ years.

metal on metal contact causes wear and thread deformation.

OEM applied "armor" coatings to prevent corrosion wear away readily at the thread contact points. im sure many of you have seen the metal shavings/fuzz.
arp and many other oem and aftermarket replacment studs only have a clear or yellow zinc coating.

once threads wear a bit strength drops

NASCAR arp studs are coated with a dry film lubricant

i know early concerns with lubricants on wheel studs related to the tendency towards migration of the lubricants to the inside of the DRUM brakes. disc not subjected to this issue.

arp recommends you install wheel studs with liberal use of their lube. other than wiping off the excess there's no mention in their instructions of removing the lubricant afterwards with a solvent.

my personal experience has been that people use too much anti seize it collects debris that can screw with rotor/wheel runout. a little bit goes a long way.
OEM's have a huge thing for this as it falls under NVH...its half the reason some rotors bolt on so that a wheel change doesnt result in debris between the rotor/hub changing runout....plus well, UTI grads

anti seize has a carrier lube that seems to dry out but the resultant thick goo isnt quite a lubricant. almost has a thick gritty texture

arp lube carriers lube evaporates as well but it leaves a fine thin grey/black powder...your fingers still slide quite nicely...almost like its a dry film/graphite lube...no crap collects to the studs.

with the cost of arp wheel studs and the cost of arp lube...ill lube the threads

be aware that the use of anti seize may generate similarities to clitter glitter that might have you in hot water with the old lady...

/james
 

GLADIATOR

aka STROKE-KING
TCG Premium
Mar 29, 2004
34,248
33,090
New Lenox IL
Wow. I have been using anti-sieze on lugs all my life. I don't think I had titanium studs on my hot rods but I always smear a light film on them and tighten with my air gun to about 90-100ft lbs. I have had several frozen lug nuts on different vehicles in the past and actually destroyed a rim to get one off.

My neighbor had a flat tire in his brand new vw suv and he couldn't get the lugs off. He had to have it towed to the dealer. It took them several days because he had several frozen lugs all the way around. Anti seize would have solved that...lol.
 

chrisdicarlo

Member
Apr 20, 2015
33
6
torque? you mean whatever the impact does?

I never torque my wheels on. Engine internals and small fasteners only.

I used to do the same thing until I did the brakes on my 4runner. I put the wheel back on started tightening the lugs and one sheered off. I had to take everything apart again and put a new stud in.

I now torque my lug nuts.
 
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