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Old 12-05-2013, 06:58 PM   #251
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Ford still at it with the undersized brakes... 12.6" brakes, presumably with some light duty dual piston calipers clamping down on them.

Otherwise the engine lineup looks great as does the performance, as does the interior. I just can not get by the looks. It's not ugly; it's just not better looking than the outgoing model. I wouldn't look at that car and instantly think that it was a newer model year car; just a different model.

The side profile kind of blows too.

Geez, am I the only one left hating on this?
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:01 PM   #252
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:10 PM   #253
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True story... A good friend of mine texted me the night Paul Walker died asking me if I knew. Instead of explaining everything to him I just directed him to the post here.

A couple days ago he texts me the toddler Mike K picture and he's losing his shit. He thinks it's hilarious. He's probably wanted to tell me the same in one form or fashion for about 10 years now.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:13 PM   #254
 
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Ford still at it with the undersized brakes... 12.6" brakes, presumably with some light duty dual piston calipers clamping down on them.
Those are the v6 and Standard Eco Boost Brakes. It looks like the v8 gets 13.9" rotors and 4 piston calipers standard. Those brakes look to be an option on the Eco Boost as well.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:15 PM   #255
 
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oh so its not going to be smaller than the last one? Didnt they say it was going to be like a lot smaller? I take back what I said earlier. Hopefully they keep that weight down still.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:25 PM   #256
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Those are the v6 and Standard Eco Boost Brakes. It looks like the v8 gets 13.9" rotors and 4 piston calipers standard. Those brakes look to be an option on the Eco Boost as well.
I saw that... I just don't understand the concept of having to upgrade to competent braking. Call me a snob but this is one of the reasons I love my German cars. They don't nickle and dime on stuff like this because they don't have to.

GM and Ford have a history of under-braking everything. This isn't recent either. It's decades old. The first SHO had 10" rotors which they then upgraded to 10.9" which they then upgraded to 12.6". All single piston caliper setups.

So we're standing in Ford headquarters in 2009 waiting for them to unveil the car and the moment they do the first thing I said to my buddy was that it's under-braked. It gets stock size Taurus rotors. 12.8" rotors on a 4400lb car. Comparatively my 600lb lighter BMW sports 13.7" rotors up front and it's not even the "performance" version of the car. And I'm not saying this as a BMW is the fastest; BMW is the best type thing. Most of the higher end makes don't compromise on this stuff.

I don't understand why the domestics still come up so short here.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:31 PM   #257
 
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I saw that... I just don't understand the concept of having to upgrade to competent braking. Call me a snob but this is one of the reasons I love my German cars. They don't nickle and dime on stuff like this because they don't have to.

GM and Ford have a history of under-braking everything. This isn't recent either. It's decades old. The first SHO had 10" rotors which they then upgraded to 10.9" which they then upgraded to 12.6". All single piston caliper setups.

So we're standing in Ford headquarters in 2009 waiting for them to unveil the car and the moment they do the first thing I said to my buddy was that it's under-braked. It gets stock size Taurus rotors. 12.8" rotors on a 4400lb car. Comparatively my 600lb lighter BMW sports 13.7" rotors up front and it's not even the "performance" version of the car. And I'm not saying this as a BMW is the fastest; BMW is the best type thing. Most of the higher end makes don't compromise on this stuff.

I don't understand why the domestics still come up so short here.
You are comparing apples to oranges in terms of price points.

13.9" brakes in a 200 lb lighter car. I don't think brakes will be an issue.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:32 PM   #258
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You are comparing apples to oranges in terms of price points.

13.9" brakes in a 200 lb lighter car. I don't think brakes will be an issue.
So then you didn't read my posts at all, yeah?
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:36 PM   #259
 
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BMW has a higher vehicle cost. They are going after a much different market. Ford needs to keep the base model to a small purchase price to get buyers in the seats.

The 2011-2014 60-0 mph distance was very close. Like a couple feet. But the track events they don't work well due to the heat. I see no problem having an option for better brakes if they need it. It sounds like the v8 will have the same brakes as the 2012-14 Brembo cars. So they are stepping up on the end of brakes.

I am happier to see them making the interior leaps and bounds better than it has been for decades. EVERY owner benefits from that. Versus the very small percentage that utilize the Brembo brakes close to their performance limits.

I see what you are saying. But you have to give them credit, GM & Ford, because they now offer Brembo brakes on these cars for a very attractive price. Maybe in years to come we will see big brake rotors and 4+ caliper pistons standard. Remember, both companies have larger diameter rotors and 6 piston calipers in their parts bins. So you never know what might happen.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:40 PM   #260
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BMW has a higher vehicle cost. They are going after a much different market. Ford needs to keep the base model to a small purchase price to get buyers in the seats.

The 2011-2014 60-0 mph distance was very close. Like a couple feet. But the track events they don't work well due to the heat. I see no problem having an option for better brakes if they need it. It sounds like the v8 will have the same brakes as the 2012-14 Brembo cars. So they are stepping up on the end of brakes.

I am happier to see them making the interior leaps and bounds better than it has been for decades. EVERY owner benefits from that. Versus the very small percentage that utilize the Brembo brakes close to their performance limits.

I see what you are saying. But you have to give them credit, GM & Ford, because they now offer Brembo brakes on these cars for a very attractive price. Maybe in years to come we will see big brake rotors and 4+ caliper pistons standard. Remember, both companies have larger diameter rotors and 6 piston calipers in their parts bins. So you never know what might happen.
All good points and the interior is amazing. For me I just don't see brakes as a point of compromise and 12.6" brakes on a 3300 - 3400lb car becomes readily apparent under moderate braking, not necessarily track conditions.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:50 PM   #261
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Fuck fuck fuck, seriously debating pre ordering, but dont wanna pay 40k+ for a fully loaded one
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:54 PM   #262
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:55 PM   #263
 
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So then you didn't read my posts at all, yeah?
I did that's why I am scratching my head:

2014 BMW 3 series

328i: 12.3"
335i: 13.4"

BMW "upgrades" their brakes by engine size.

Tires are really more important than brake rotor size. The rotor size and pistons only increase the thermal capacity of the system.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:58 PM   #264
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I did that's why I am scratching my head:

2014 BMW 3 series

328i: 12.3"
335i: 13.3"

BMW "upgrades" their brakes by engine size.

Tires are really more important than brake rotor size. The rotor size and pistons only increase the thermal capacity of the system.
I'm just not going to go through the trouble to respond to this. You need to go back and re-read my posts to understand my point. The car is under-braked. Fords have been under-braked for years. Nobody debates this. It's nice to see that upgrades are offered for higher tier models.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:03 PM   #265
 
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I'm just not going to go through the trouble to respond to this. You need to go back and re-read my posts to understand my point. The car is under-braked. Fords have been under-braked for years. Nobody debates this. It's nice to see that upgrades are offered for higher tier models.
Not recent Mustangs, but then again you are comparing luxury cars to a pony car.

The 2 piston PBR's in Mustangs since the 96-98 Cobras work well until you put race pads in the calipers. The 05+ brakes worked well until you put race pads on them (ducting helped). Brake rotor size doesn't make a good braking system. There's a lot more to it than that.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #266
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Not recent Mustangs, but then again you are comparing luxury cars to a pony car.

The 2 piston PBR's in Mustangs since the 98 Cobras work well until you put race pads in the calipers. The 05+ brakes worked well until you put race pads on them (ducting helped). Brake rotor size doesn't make a good braking system. There's a lot more to it than that.
I understand. I've been building brake kits for over 10 years now. I actually sold hundreds of kits based on the dual piston light duty PBR caliper found in the old Mustangs and the heavier duty Cobra setups from the same gen cars. I'm not speaking from ignorance.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #267
 
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #268
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I'll never learn.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:08 PM   #269
 
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:12 PM   #270
 
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I understand. I've been building brake kits for over 10 years now. I actually sold hundreds of kits based on the dual piston light duty PBR caliper found in the old Mustangs and the heavier duty Cobra setups from the same gen cars. I'm not speaking from ignorance.
And you won't overcook those "light duty" brakes with street tires. I am not speaking from ignorance either. The brakes calipers aren't the issue, the pad compound is.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:16 PM   #271
 
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Since you have to be a member of S197 forum to see posts:

STOCK BRAKE PACKAGE

From what I can see, there's a pretty simple upgrade path as drivers move from one group to the next, with some interesting results in some areas.

First, we need to realize exactly what it is we're working with! While there are a lot of differing opinions about exactly what the S197 chassis really weighs, I've personally seen dozens of them weighed on "official" scales, and excepting stripped track-only cars, they are ALL over 3600lbs in race trim, with driver and safety gear in place. With just a splash of fuel left and a full interior, I scaled at 3605! That really is a LOT of weight to try to accelerate, slow, and turn, and puts a pretty heavy load on the braking systems of the cars.

With the Fox and SN95 chassis, the brake upgrade most commonly seen is a change to the "Cobra" calipers and rotors, which is almost exactly what we start with from the factory; 13" rotor diameter up front, PBR-type dual piston calipers, and a floating mount. Make no mistake, this base package does NOT suck, and can be very successfully tracked. While 12-piston calipers, and two-piece 15" rotors made from unobtanium are available, unless you're just a banzai driver, they are NOT necessary! More on this later.

For drivers that track their cars once or twice a year, or are contemplating their first track event, there are only a few basic upgrades that really need to be done. First is pad compound. The stock pads are okay on the street, but will turn to dust rapidly under the demands of a road course, and I have seen more than one student parked before the end of the weekend due to burned up brake pads. This is important: there is NO "street" compound that can handle the heat of open-tracking! Given the weight of the car, and the power available to get up to speed, you NEED to go to a race compound of some sort. For the entry-level or occasional use car, something like a Hawk HT-10 up front with HP-Plus in the rear is usually sufficient. For Carbotech fans, that would be XP-8 up front, and Bobcat in the rear. The next thing is brake fluid. Again for the occasional or novice driver, simply flushing the system with clean, fresh, factory-type fluid is sufficient, but make sure that the fluid in the car is less than a year old before you hit the track. Honestly, that's it. Mild pads and fresh fluid are really all you need, brake-wise, to hit the track for your first time, or if you only go occasionally. Once you're done with your event, slap the OE pads back in, and you're golden.

For more aggressive drivers, the formula starts to change. Brake cooling becomes critical, aftermarket fluids are indicated, and the pad compound needs to change upwards. Hawk DTC-60 up front, and HT-10 in the rear (Carbotech XP-10 and XP-8), good "racing" brake fluid (Motul RBF600, ATE SuperBlue or SuperGold, Brembo; Castrol SRF) that you flush every six months, and of course, brake ducting. Quantum Motorsports, Steeda, and Agent47 all sell ducting kits, and all of them work fairly well. If you're leaning towards the more hard-core end of the spectrum, though, you may want to roll your own. It'll save you some money, and give you more efficiency in cooling. Butler-Bilt inlets, QMS high-temp duct hose, and fabricated backing plates will let you get more airflow through the rotor, but too much of a good thing can be bad! At the really high-speed tracks, I have to tape off part of my inlets, since I can over-cool the brakes and actually drop the temps below the point where the initial bite is still good. Also, if you are going to track your car fairly regularly, invest in some GOOD braided brake hoses. Yes, they will stiffen up the pedal feel a tiny bit, but the primary benefit is more durability when subjected to the heat, vibration, and occasional contact with "track boogers" being kicked up.

For the truly hard-core, the fabricated ducting setup is the only way to go, along with serious brake pads. Think DTC-70/DTC-60 (XP-16/XP-12), and consider making the move to Castrol SRF fluid. Hugely expensive, but reports indicate that it's all but impossible to boil the stuff, and it won't grab moisture out of the air like the Motul fluid will. I personally just can't afford $70/quart fluids, so I haven't tried it myself...

The bottom line on pads, however, is that if you’re running the stock GT brake package, you’ll need to stagger your pad compounds, running one range less aggressive in the rear, to keep braking balance from biasing rearward. If you run the same compounds front and rear, you will have a tendency to lock up the rears, triggering early ABS activation, and at that point you’re throwing away braking potential.

Please note that ALL of the above packages and recommendations are still based around OE calipers! Now, let's talk about rotors... The more aggressive the brake compound you run, the more metallic content is in the pad, and the faster the rotor wear you get. While there are ALWAYS exceptions, that's a good rule of thumb. Given that, my personal recommendation is to stick with OE, plain-face rotors. Cross-drilled pieces only provide opportunity for localized hot-spotting and cracking. Slots were originally used to provide an off-gas path when brake pads used organic base compounds (think asbestos), with the modern compounds, the whole need to allow a gas path has essentially disappeared.

Up to this point, we’ve been looking exclusively at the OE braking package: 13” vented, plain-face rotors with 2-piston sliding calipers up front. Now, I think we should look at the alternatives.

GT vs. GT500 front brake packages

Since both packages use the base GT rear caliper and rotor, we can focus strictly on the difference in the front brakes. Up to this point, I have been very positive about the stock GT brake package, and I continue to assert that there is really nothing inherently wrong with that package, with one exception: Durability. There are a few drawbacks with the GT front package, and they all revolve around heat. The aluminum caliper castings will, over time, soften in the bridge area between the inboard and outboard pads, and spread. This leads to a taper-wear condition, where the tops of the pads, particularly the outboard side, will wear very quickly, but the bottom won’t. This leaves the pad with a wedge shape when looked at in profile, and dramatically shortens the lifespan of the pad. In addition, since there is relatively limited thermal capacity in the rotor, they tend to surface-check quickly, which can lead to cracking. In 2009, over 16 track days, I went through two sets of calipers, three sets of rotors, and three sets of brake pads. Parts cost, however, really isn’t that high, due to ready access to take-off parts for the rotors and calipers.

The GT500 (Brembo) calipers, however, are a completely different animal. Instead of a floating-caliper design, where the caliper rides on a pair of slid-pins and shifts back and forth with pedal actuation, the Brembo calipers are fixed-mount, bolting directly onto the knuckle, and are equipped with four pistons, two to the inboard, and two to the outboard halves of the calipers. In addition to the much stronger bridge section, which is not nearly as prone to spread as the PBR style caliper on the base GT package, they are engineered for 14” diameter rotors, rather than the 13” stockers. In terms of overall weight, you will gain approximately 5lbs per side, all unsprung, but you will also gain a much larger thermal capacity in the rotor. The three main downsides to the GT500 package are: 1) MUCH higher parts cost. The pads are much more expensive, as are the rotors (no take-off source). 2) More complicated bleeding, as there are two bleeder screws per caliper. 3) Potential for pad knock-back. This occurs when there is play in the wheel bearing or major runout in the rotor, which causes the pads to be pushed away from the rotor surface. The result is a long pedal stroke on initial application, but that can be counteracted by a stab or two with the left foot just before entering the braking zone. The major upsides to the Brembo package are: 1) drastically reduced caliper fatigue. The “bending bridge” problem with the PBR-style calipers is eliminated. 2) more even pad wear, as there is no frictional binding in the slide pins. 3) vastly lower heat transfer into the brake fluid, resulting in reduced need to bleed mid-day. For an experiment, I went as far as I could before the brake fluid boiled badly enough to get a spongy pedal, and it was a total of four track days with no bleeding! 4) demonstrably longer component wear. In 2010, after 13 track days, I was finally forced to change the front pads. The rotors were just starting to show surface checking, and of course, the calipers themselves were fine. According to my spreadsheets, this all equates to reduced net operating cost, despite the higher initial outlay. For track junkies, this will pay off, for the occasional user, perhaps not as drastically.

The brake pad bias will also change with the larger rotor diameter, since the braking torque is increased up front. Instead of stepping down one compound range in the rear, with the 14”rotor testing shows that identical compounds are the best match. I’ve had excellent success with the DTC-60 (or XP-12) compound all the way around.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:28 PM   #272
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:29 PM   #273
 
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All good points and the interior is amazing. For me I just don't see brakes as a point of compromise and 12.6" brakes on a 3300 - 3400lb car becomes readily apparent under moderate braking, not necessarily track conditions.
Well the early Foxbody cars had 9" rotors and single piston calipers at around 3200 lbs.. I think the 12.8" dual piston caliper is a upgrade at 3400-3600 lbs.. But I am used to mediocrity. Haha

I would live to see 14" four piston brakes standard. It just isn't gonna happen for a while. Maybe if the cars price keeps escalating it will be something the bean counters will approve. I would like to see a upgraded rear brake and matching four piston caliper, like the Camaro already has.




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Fuck fuck fuck, seriously debating pre ordering, but dont wanna pay 40k+ for a fully loaded one



You working consistently? If so do it. You sold the cobra and should have a good chunk of change to put towards it.


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Tires are really more important than brake rotor size. The rotor size and pistons only increase the thermal capacity of the system.



That is not true. While it helps with heat that is not the whole story. The larger diameter rotor has better leverage, if you will, to help increase braking effectiveness.


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Old 12-05-2013, 08:36 PM   #274
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Wasn't sure about the new look a couple days ago.

Then I saw this:



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Old 12-05-2013, 08:59 PM   #275
 
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That is not true. While it helps with heat that is not the whole story. The larger diameter rotor has better leverage, if you will, to help increase braking effectiveness.
True, but there is not much of a difference in stopping distances between the 13.2" brakes and 14.0" Brembos in later S197's when you have the same tires on the car. The Brembos are more repeatable and have better feel due to the added pistons and more rigid caliper.

Given that the 15 GT has 6 piston Brembos up front, I wouldn't be surprised to see ceramic brakes on the GT350/GT500 or whatever it's called.
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