3800 Your thoughts on W/A injection on my turbo car

[98 TGP TOY]

Yea, so im just looking for design thoughts on this. I think I want to put the nozzle into my custom intake manifold, that im constructing. It would aim towards the l67 lower intake inlet. Im not sure what i want to do about the tank though. Im thinking of getting one put into the trunk, granted its bad for traction/launching. I just want a tank big enough to last a tankful of gas without running out. Something easy access and simple. Now if i put the tank in the trunk, can I put the pump in the trunk also? Or would the sending distance be to far for the pump to handle affectively? What size nozzle should I go with? I was thinking when I tap my intake manifold, I could put in two or three different nozzles and just plug the ones im not using. It would make for easy swapping, and none of these would be in the airflow path, so no worry about added turbulance.

So I am looking for thoughts on:

optimum nozzle placement
tank or use washer reservoir
nozzle size
pump placement
component recommendations
anything else



All thoughts welcomed....except telling me to get an IC . Thanx guys.

Click to read more...

 

[imported_Diavolo]

there's been alot of info over at clubgp. You can probably find some good stuff there or checking out some Turbo Buick boards.

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Yea, i have read the threads about injection. How to make your own kit, and everything else. But Im asking questions specific to my car. Since I wont be putting the nozzle in a TB spacer, since i dont want it just for track use, since im spraying into a pressurized environment, since pump placement depends on tank recommendations, etc.

Thanx for the suggestion though.

 

[fastcash]

my .02...wi/ai is the shit. you can run 87 if absolutely necessary without kr. you can add tons of boost, race gas, and with the ai/wi on your current setup = no kr! make sure you have professional advise, huge resevior, great pump, and always keep your eye on the whole operation...which i am sure you prolly do now

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Yes, i know it is the "shit"

Why im looking into it is you can set up a professional system for far cheaper than any IC, far less work, and it performs very well.



Any ever tested W/A injection compared to an IC? I wonder how well W/A injection kept up.


I was thinking of running some extremely basic thermo equations on the two systems but i dont know if i want to do that much work.

 

[rob]

WI is supposed to be more effective with turbos. It drops temps up to 90*....

I have a link. Need to find it.

 

[fastcash]

Originally posted by fastcash420@Jan 12 2005, 01:34 PM
my .02...wi/ai is the shit. you can run 87 if absolutely necessary without kr. you can add tons of boost, race gas, and with the ai/wi on your current setup = no kr! make sure you have professional advise, huge resevior, great pump, and always keep your eye on the whole operation...which i am sure you prolly do now

[snapback]67367[/snapback]​

http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/waterinjected.htm

here's a good link

 

[rob]

Thats a good link but a rather expensive kit...You can put one together cheaper than that. -$200. Question is the pump. The guy I got the 2 links from is in this club.

They put a kit together. They said, for around a buck. I wouldnt skimp on the pump which im sure is the most-costly componant. Their was a couple that you can choose from.

$5something is close to the cost of a Aqua-mist and then you may as well buy a conventional IC...

No one ever said you cant run both...You just have to run the mister nossle under/below the IC core. Reasoning is pudling/hydrolock....

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by rob@Jan 15 2005, 02:11 PM
Thats a good link but a rather expensive kit...You can put one together cheaper than that. -$200. Question is the pump. The guy I got the 2 links from is in this club.

They put a kit together. They said, for around a buck. I wouldnt skimp on the pump which im sure is the most-costly componant. Their was a couple that you can choose from.

$5something is close to the cost of a Aqua-mist and then you may as well buy a conventional IC...

No one ever said you cant run both...You just have to run the mister nossle under/below the IC core. Reasoning is pudling/hydrolock....

[snapback]67712[/snapback]​

well if it was an A/A IC like all the turbo guys are using rather than the ones for the scs he could still run it right after the tb but that wouls requie a whole setup change.

but on a sced car would it really hurt to spray right after the tb and through an ic core?

has anyone looked into that yet?
just curious to why it wold actually hurt the ic core.

spraying after the ic just seems like there wouldnt be enough time for it to atomize or whatever its called.

 

[rob]

Originally posted by Kyle+Jan 15 2005, 03:33 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-rob

@Jan 15 2005, 02:11 PM
Thats a good link but a rather expensive kit...You can put one together cheaper than that. -$200. Question is the pump. The guy I got the 2 links from is in this club.

They put a kit together. They said, for around a buck. I wouldnt skimp on the pump which im sure is the most-costly componant. Their was a couple that you can choose from.

$5something is close to the cost of a Aqua-mist and then you may as well buy a conventional IC...

No one ever said you cant run both...You just have to run the mister nossle under/below the IC core. Reasoning is pudling/hydrolock....

[snapback]67712[/snapback]​

well if it was an A/A IC like all the turbo guys are using rather than the ones for the scs he could still run it right after the tb but that wouls requie a whole setup change.

but on a sced car would it really hurt to spray right after the tb and through an ic core?

has anyone looked into that yet?
just curious to why it wold actually hurt the ic core.

spraying after the ic just seems like there wouldnt be enough time for it to atomize or whatever its called.

[snapback]67715[/snapback]​

[/b]

Its not going to HURT the core. But if too much puddling occurs. You can damage your engine.. If you shoot the atonimised water at (pre-IC) core, The radiater like core restriction will interfere/catch the atoimised water vapor and turn it back to a liquid that car drip into your engine.
You cannot compress a liquid.
Its called puddling. Hard to believe with all that heat but at the very least it will not be effective cooling your air temps.
In my opinion. I think you shouldnt shoot it in you SCer aswell. After is better. Ive heard of prolonged water/allky vapor exposure has rusted/damaged rotors. There is more room in the lower intake for the heat/pressure and vapor to react completely cooling you down up too 90*+
When its sprayed..Its atonimised. The IC core will turn it back to liquid form.

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by rob+Jan 15 2005, 04:19 PM-->

Originally posted by Kyle@Jan 15 2005, 03:33 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-rob

@Jan 15 2005, 02:11 PM
Thats a good link but a rather expensive kit...You can put one together cheaper than that. -$200. Question is the pump. The guy I got the 2 links from is in this club.

They put a kit together. They said, for around a buck. I wouldnt skimp on the pump which im sure is the most-costly componant. Their was a couple that you can choose from.

$5something is close to the cost of a Aqua-mist and then you may as well buy a conventional IC...

No one ever said you cant run both...You just have to run the mister nossle under/below the IC core. Reasoning is pudling/hydrolock....

[snapback]67712[/snapback]​

well if it was an A/A IC like all the turbo guys are using rather than the ones for the scs he could still run it right after the tb but that wouls requie a whole setup change.

but on a sced car would it really hurt to spray right after the tb and through an ic core?

has anyone looked into that yet?
just curious to why it wold actually hurt the ic core.

spraying after the ic just seems like there wouldnt be enough time for it to atomize or whatever its called.

[snapback]67715[/snapback]​

Its not going to HURT the core. But if too much puddling occurs. You can damage your engine.. If you shoot the atonimised water at (pre-IC) core, The radiater like core restriction will interfere/catch the atoimised water vapor and turn it back to a liquid that car drip into your engine.
You cannot compress a liquid.
Its called puddling. Hard to believe with all that heat but at the very least it will not be effective cooling your air temps.
In my opinion. I think you shouldnt shoot it in you SCer aswell. After is better. Ive heard of prolonged water/allky vapor exposure has rusted/damaged rotors. There is more room in the lower intake for the heat/pressure and vapor to react completely cooling you down up too 90*+
When its sprayed..Its atonimised. The IC core will turn it back to liquid form.

[snapback]67720[/snapback]​

[/b]

so ur saying it would have time to atonimise if sprayed into the lower intake? I've just seen people saying they think it wouldnt have enough time/space to thats why I'm asking cuz I personally know nothing on this subject thats why I'm asking.

How big are the injectors for this anyway? could you take an egr block-off plate and modify it with an injector for this? Just a thought for ease of installation, rather than drill into your lower intake.

 

[fastcash]

quote rob: "In my opinion. I think you shouldnt shoot it in you SCer aswell. After is better. Ive heard of prolonged water/allky vapor exposure has rusted/damaged rotors. There is more room in the lower intake for the heat/pressure and vapor to react completely cooling you down up too 90*+
When its sprayed..Its atonimised. The IC core will turn it back to liquid form."


on the contrary, everyone "hears" that it is bad for the rotors, yet there is no proof of this alleged destruction. the link i posted previously installs wi on kenne belle sc's and those are rotor roots type blowers. plus, you are not constantly spraying, so in the time you are not spraying, air is passing through, hot and ambient, "drying" the rotors. at the tb, after the maf is THE place to spray on gtp's. this is coming from me, and a guy with over 20 years of forced induction experience.

 

[rob]

Its atonimized right out of the WI NOZZLE before or after the SCer. I can go with what fastcash said. You can spray it in the intake after the MAF. Their really isnt, or I dont have proof of SCer damage to an M90. However, some SCers are not recomended for WI. Like the MP112. Something about the rotor coatings.

Ive thought of the EGR are for a WI nozzle. You can also get/fab a TB spacer ot NOS plate if thick enough. I drilled and tap a pheloic spacer plate. Must be after the MAF as indicated.

Remember, its atonimize out of the WI nozzle.

I dont have 20 yrs of FI. But I know you dont want to inject WI before a air to water IC...

have fun

 

[fastcash]

Originally posted by 98 TGP TOY@Jan 11 2005, 09:57 PM
Yea, so im just looking for design thoughts on this.  I think I want to put the nozzle into my custom intake manifold, that im constructing.  It would aim towards the l67 lower intake inlet.  Im not sure what i want to do about the tank though.  Im thinking of getting one put into the trunk, granted its bad for traction/launching.  I just want a tank big enough to last a tankful of gas without running out.  Something easy access and simple.  Now if i put the tank in the trunk, can I put the pump in the trunk also?  Or would the sending distance be to far for the pump to handle affectively?  What size nozzle should I go with?  I was thinking when I tap my intake manifold, I could put in two or three different nozzles and just plug the ones im not using.  It would make for easy swapping, and none of these would be in the airflow path, so no worry about added turbulance. 

So I am looking for thoughts on:

optimum nozzle placement
tank or use washer reservoir
nozzle size
pump placement
component recommendations



All thoughts welcomed....except telling me to get an IC .  Thanx guys.

[snapback]67311[/snapback]​

nozzle placement on a turbo car would be best right after the maf in the tb, in my opinion...buy a used winshield washer reservoir, it is plenty, should last atleast 30 passes, nozzle size in degrees, about 45*, 60*, 90* will work fine, i don't want to comment on anything else due to lack of experience, and alcohol ... :drunk:

just do not not not, skimp on the pump, the connections, and the hoses...my .02

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Well it only took 13 posts for peoples actual input on my questions

Just messing. Thanx for all the input guys, thats what I love about this club. Though i already knew 90% of it.

I have a pretty good idea of what im going after right now. So when the tracks start opening back up and I get this kit put together and installed, expect some failing tranny questions. Thanx guys

 

[fastcash]

Originally posted by 98 TGP TOY@Jan 16 2005, 12:25 AM
Well it only took 13 posts for peoples actual input on my questions

Just messing.  Thanx for all the input guys, thats what I love about this club.  Though i already knew 90% of it.

I have a pretty good idea of what im going after right now.  So when the tracks start opening back up and I get this kit put together and installed, expect some failing tranny questions.  Thanx guys

[snapback]67750[/snapback]​

yeah, let's blow these trannies up come 2005. i am hoping that at idd VI i have my car done so i can see just how strong my transmission is. i am going for twelves on only 3'0 pulley, and no N20. i got a guy who knows a shitload, and so far, so good.

now all i have to do is learn how to ease on the peddle in the launch

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by fastcash420+Jan 16 2005, 11:18 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-98 TGP TOY

@Jan 16 2005, 12:25 AM
Well it only took 13 posts for peoples actual input on my questions

Just messing.  Thanx for all the input guys, thats what I love about this club.  Though i already knew 90% of it.

I have a pretty good idea of what im going after right now.  So when the tracks start opening back up and I get this kit put together and installed, expect some failing tranny questions.  Thanx guys

[snapback]67750[/snapback]​

yeah, let's blow these trannies up come 2005. i am hoping that at idd VI i have my car done so i can see just how strong my transmission is. i am going for twelves on only 3'0 pulley, and no N20. i got a guy who knows a shitload, and so far, so good.

now all i have to do is learn how to ease on the peddle in the launch

[snapback]67762[/snapback]​

[/b]

I'm also gonna try and hit 12's on my 3.0, and definetly planning on breaking my trans at IDD so I have take it to intense and get a new one.

 

[rob]

Whts your best advice on the water to alcohol ratios in you opion. What and where do you get your alcohol.

I know a guy whos running/injecting washer fluid in his 3000 GT. Whats everyone else using. Whats the best and most viable.

 

[fastcash]

go to walmart pay 1.50 for windshield washer solvent 50/50 = methanol alcohol and water. the alky boosts the octane, the water cools the mix.

 

[98 TGP TOY]

I've read a good mixture is 33% alc/66% water. I think a mixture of 50% or more of alc. is flammable.

 

[fastcash]

Originally posted by 98 TGP TOY@Jan 16 2005, 10:06 PM
I've read a good mixture is 33% alc/66% water.  I think a mixture of 50% or more of alc. is flammable.

[snapback]67814[/snapback]​

now that i think of it, it might be 60/40. i have to ask my chemist buddy. i'll get back on this unless someone knows for sure before then

alas, you want the flammability, it will produce a deeper, cleaner burn. laymens terms: boosts the octane

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Yes but is the flammability good when you are leaking on a hose?

 

[sgtp]

turbobuick.com has a lot of info on this subject...and those guys have 20 yrs experience, too

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=14

 

[rob]

Yea I remember now. Thats what we did on his 3000 GT awile back. was juat washer fluid. he ran something else too...Thats why I asked. Washer fluid is FINE.

Thanks for the info...

 

[98 TGP TOY]

So do you guys think there would be any problems with putting the nozzle a couple inches in front of the TB plate? It would be after the MAF.