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Old 05-21-2014, 12:46 AM   #26
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So what exactly are we talking about in terms of AFR and whatnot if there is say a 5% difference pump to pump?

All I know is I've never tested and e85 is insanely forgiving, never knocked on it, though no clue on how much I'm pushing the envelope.
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:20 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Broken Regal View Post
So what exactly are we talking about in terms of AFR and whatnot if there is say a 5% difference pump to pump?

All I know is I've never tested and e85 is insanely forgiving, never knocked on it, though no clue on how much I'm pushing the envelope.


To make this a bit easier, I will speak of these fuel AFR's with regard to stoichiometric values rather than AFR's that are sought while WOT. Either way, usually, ON AVERAGE, the most power gained while being safe is usually about 15-20% richer than lambda (stoich) for most fuels and engine combos at WOT, so you can apply a little extrapolation from the info I am about to post if you want to apply it to WOT situations. ymmv. Stoich for regular gasoline is 14.64:1, whereas stoich for E85 (assuming a perfect 85% ethanol content) is 9.85:1.

The formula that one would use to calculate the final stoich value of mixed percentage fuels is as follows:

(Fuel#1% x Stoich) + (Fuel#2% x Stoich) + (Fuel#3% x Stoich) + on and on = Final Stoich for mixed fuel.


So, for a +/- 5% variance in ethanol content, you are looking at a stoich AFR of 9.56:1 for 90% ethanol, and 10.13:1 for 80% ethanol content.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:36 AM   #28
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im ASSuming that your using 60* across the board as your temperature/fuel density, but even the temp of the fuel has an effect on air/fuel ratio's.
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:24 AM   #29
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can you explain the fuel temperature difference and how it affects the chemistry?

just use a flex fuel tuning system if you are concerned about it.

Please someone also explain how water mixed with ethanol in an E85 tank (as in the E85 out of the pump is contaminated with water) is able to be detected with a water tester.
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:33 AM   #30
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:35 AM   #31
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fuel volume at the pump is calculated around 60* and even though the hot fuel issue has been starting to get addressed for diesels it has not been required that pumps be temperature compensating for the fuel volume pumped through a gas/e85 pump

needless to say you a/f ratio at a cold morning start at 60* is gonna be richer than it is after an hour drive and 90* mid day temps has the engine heating your fuel tank up to over 100*

as D said, a self correcting flex fuel sensor equipped EMS is your only good reliable choice
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:37 AM   #32
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it doesnt affect the chemistry, but since you efi system is set about calculating units of volume, fuel density plays a larger part, and i believe its moreso for less energy dense fuels like ethanol
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:38 AM   #33
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you skippin dippin yer wick and yer coming over tonight right?
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:47 AM   #34
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http://www.rockettbrand.com/download...0vs%20Temp.pdf

pretty good explanation James, though the density difference is pretty marginal (3% over a 60F range). It would seem this is further reduced in importance taking into account that the air to fuel ratio is heavily weighted towards air, though the density of fuel is much higher than air obviously.

must research more, but wouldn't be extremely concerned other than due to vapor lock issues with regards to fuel temperature.
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:55 AM   #35
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oh I figure it's pretty marginal but dude is talking about eliminating all variables
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:57 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocharged400sbc View Post
im ASSuming that your using 60* across the board as your temperature/fuel density, but even the temp of the fuel has an effect on air/fuel ratio's.

Most stoich values for fuels are provided "by mass" and not necessarily volume. In that case you would not have to account for changes in temperature, and thus differing fuel densities, when calculating what the final stoich burn point is for a mixed fuel. My calculations were done by mass.

In addition to that, even if we did do "by volume" calculations on those particular fuels, the lambda variance seen from different temps encountered would not be appreciable.

One last item to point out is that fuel temperature variance is something not really controllable in the field unless you only drive your car in certain ambient temp conditions, so its a variable that's uncontrollable by the end user in the corresponding stoich calculation too. Sure, it's good to get the averages to understand it, but since we don't race in Death Valley it doesn't become an issue that needs to be accounted for here.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:05 AM   #37
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it doesnt affect the chemistry, but since you efi system is set about calculating units of volume, fuel density plays a larger part, and i believe its moreso for less energy dense fuels like ethanol
I do see what you're saying. While stoich by mass will not change, stoich by volume will, when density for a given fuel increases or decreases disproportionately compared to the other fuel in the mixture. However, considering that there isn't an immense variance encountered in the temperature range that these fuels are burnt in (vs having been tuned in), in our area at least, then it becomes a non-issue really. Still, a good discussion point when speaking about the more scientific nuances that can affect stoich burn.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:15 AM   #38
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handsome Jesus View Post
can you explain the fuel temperature difference and how it affects the chemistry?

just use a flex fuel tuning system if you are concerned about it.

Please someone also explain how water mixed with ethanol in an E85 tank (as in the E85 out of the pump is contaminated with water) is able to be detected with a water tester.
you can see its cloudy and it wont seperate out like normal i might have a picture of when i tested some that sat in my tank all winter, but if you have some that has water in it it should have a milky/cloudy look to it you just notice it when you have it in the little glass vile it has nothing to do with the test unless it has a ton of water in it then i wont even seperate back out
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:38 AM   #39
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Do not know if it will help, but I did the water/ethanol science experiment at the gas pump for a few years. Just a few weeks ago I installed a Zeitronix ECA2 and when installing I went ahead and sampled the fuel using the 100ml graduated cylinder method. Came out with the upper meniscus at 96.5, and the lower meniscus at 85 - - which works out to 75.5% ethanol. When I powered-up the ECA2 I came up with......E73 on the display.



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Old 05-21-2014, 11:38 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by billzrx7 View Post
...... So if I can get THE most accurate test available and not worry about it? Why wouldn't I?

If you are that concerned, would you consider running ProEFI? From their website:
Flex Fuel (ability to run any mixture of E85 with the ECU making on the fly adjustments to boost, spark, and fueling based on Ethanol content).

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Old 05-21-2014, 12:23 PM   #41
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Which measuring system is believed to be more accurate?
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:50 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket5979 View Post
To make this a bit easier, I will speak of these fuel AFR's with regard to stoichiometric values rather than AFR's that are sought while WOT. Either way, usually, ON AVERAGE, the most power gained while being safe is usually about 15-20% richer than lambda (stoich) for most fuels and engine combos at WOT, so you can apply a little extrapolation from the info I am about to post if you want to apply it to WOT situations. ymmv. Stoich for regular gasoline is 14.64:1, whereas stoich for E85 (assuming a perfect 85% ethanol content) is 9.85:1.

The formula that one would use to calculate the final stoich value of mixed percentage fuels is as follows:

(Fuel#1% x Stoich) + (Fuel#2% x Stoich) + (Fuel#3% x Stoich) + on and on = Final Stoich for mixed fuel.


So, for a +/- 5% variance in ethanol content, you are looking at a stoich AFR of 9.56:1 for 90% ethanol, and 10.13:1 for 80% ethanol content.
roughly a .5 AFR change due to a 10% difference in ethanol...

@ just running any e85 from whatever station is closest. NFG if at low boost, but going for #s or tracking or whatever... yikes

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Old 05-21-2014, 03:27 PM   #43
 
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the zeitronix is what im using for my sensor. I just didnt bother with the gauge as my ecu reads it. My current ecu does the flex fuel adjustments on the fly when set up. but not every rotary in the area has the luxury of such. im running the adaptronic e440 select.
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:30 PM   #44
 
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you guys are making me not want to switch to E85 now LOL.
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Old 05-30-2014, 10:28 PM   #45
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you guys are making me not want to switch to E85 now LOL.


While running E85 may involve a little more effort than a plug and play approach, if you take the time to be methodical in your testing and don't push the absolute limit of the forgiveness of the fuel then you should be ok. I would have been running it in my G8 long ago had it not been for my going back to school and killing any money tree I may have had.
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Old 05-30-2014, 10:35 PM   #46
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket5979 View Post
While running E85 may involve a little more effort than a plug and play approach, if you take the time to be methodical in your testing and don't push the absolute limit of the forgiveness of the fuel then you should be ok. I would have been running it in my G8 long ago had it not been for my going back to school and killing any money tree I may have had.
Im not one to measure the level of ethanol every time I fill up. I am a man of repetition however and would most likely fill from the same station. If the summer blend is more consistent then I would be more likely to make the change as my car will never see winter.

Knowing how gas is delivered and who pulls gas from the same well, I wonder if E85 is delivered the same way, could help narrow down who you want to get it from and who you want to stay away from.
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