Uh-oh Tesla

Gone_2022

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To be fair though a lot of cars that were way cheaper also got the same $7500 tax credit. Chevy volt, Nissan Leaf, e-golf, Pacifica plug-in, Honda clarity.....etc.... so it’s not just these ridiculous expensive $90k cars. And the had that tax credit since at least 2011 that I know of. Tesla is just playing the game, they didn’t make the rules



I’m sure we had that argument on here for the Volt before. Hell back when I bought mine I also got 4000 cash from the state of Illinois. Man I wish that program was still around.

I also agree with people that the program should probably go away. It was around to help with the cost of these cars when they first came out. More or less for the cheaper colts and other plug in hybrids. To get people to buy them and help make them more mainstream and affordable.

I think at this point and time they are now mainstream, and the tax credits can be done away with.
 

sickmint79

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Most people buying Tesla’s do not care about the EV tax credit. They would have purchased the car either way. (Esp the S and X model customers) it’s just a bonus.

For me I took mine and put it in the bank to use on some house improvements. I never counted it as free money or something I needed to have to purchase the car.

By the time I purchase my next one I’m sure the credit will be long gone. But that is not going to sway my purchase of one of their vehicles, or an Audi electric, or Porsche electric car.

i'm sure the subsidy didn't matter to the guy i knew who bought the first one since he's rich afff. but others i'm sure it impacted the financial decision. regardless it's just stupid to me to have the government pick and incent a winner. it makes much more sense for them to punish the thing they truly want to be the loser - fuel inefficiency - which would put upwards pressure on efficiency of ICE as well as all alternative and hybrid solutions.

To be fair though a lot of cars that were way cheaper also got the same $7500 tax credit. Chevy volt, Nissan Leaf, e-golf, Pacifica plug-in, Honda clarity.....etc.... so it’s not just these ridiculous expensive $90k cars. And the had that tax credit since at least 2011 that I know of. Tesla is just playing the game, they didn’t make the rules

my critique remains the same, it's just a lot more egregious at the tesla level. i believe data shows subsidies for priuses and the like largely went to wealthier households as well (just not as wealthy as tesla ones)
 

Stink Star

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my critique remains the same, it's just a lot more egregious at the tesla level. i believe data shows subsidies for priuses and the like largely went to wealthier households as well (just not as wealthy as tesla ones)

Well of course it would lean towards wealthier people. First off, poor people don’t buy new cars, especially cars over $30k new. Also it’s not a check the government gives you, it’s a tax credit so your tax liability for the year has to be over $7500 which guess would put you making more money than a poor person
 

Gone_2022

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i'm sure the subsidy didn't matter to the guy i knew who bought the first one since he's rich afff. but others i'm sure it impacted the financial decision. regardless it's just stupid to me to have the government pick and incent a winner. it makes much more sense for them to punish the thing they truly want to be the loser - fuel inefficiency - which would put upwards pressure on efficiency of ICE as well as all alternative and hybrid solutions.







my critique remains the same, it's just a lot more egregious at the tesla level. i believe data shows subsidies for priuses and the like largely went to wealthier households as well (just not as wealthy as tesla ones)



I feel like there are quite broad views of what “wealthy” is on this forum. Prius cars are a dime a dozen. Shit the volts are all over now. No they didn’t sell as well as the Tesla’s or 3s but they also didn’t get great range and were not the best to look at. But in their defense they do appear to be made extremely well.

But again what are you classifying as wealthy? If someone goes out and buys a new volt for 33 grand and puts 8 grand down and makes payments for 72 months that makes them wealthy? I’m not hating on anyone but I feel you bashing volt and Prius owners is a weak argument for wealth.
 

EmersonHart13

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I think the emphasis is that they used the credits and still posted a HUGE loss, not so much that they used the credits.

Lesser so that they quietly used the credits to lessen the loss without voluntarily disclosing it. Different people have different points in this thread though so its hard to focus
 

Gone_2022

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I think it was also stated that they paid back over a billion in loans as well very recently. Honestly what we are watching is a company going through its stages of growth. It’s still a very young company and I think we lose sight of that sometimes. We assume they are as established as Dodge or Chevy who are decades and a century old.
 

FirstWorldProblems

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Most people buying Tesla’s do not care about the EV tax credit. They would have purchased the car either way. (Esp the S and X model customers) it’s just a bonus.

For me I took mine and put it in the bank to use on some house improvements. I never counted it as free money or something I needed to have to purchase the car.

By the time I purchase my next one I’m sure the credit will be long gone. But that is not going to sway my purchase of one of their vehicles, or an Audi electric, or Porsche electric car.

To be fair though a lot of cars that were way cheaper also got the same $7500 tax credit. Chevy volt, Nissan Leaf, e-golf, Pacifica plug-in, Honda clarity.....etc.... so it’s not just these ridiculous expensive $90k cars. And the had that tax credit since at least 2011 that I know of. Tesla is just playing the game, they didn’t make the rules

I think we are talking about this right here.... Not consumer tax credits
Correct...the $7500 tax credit is entirely separate
 

FirstWorldProblems

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Didn’t they also just pay back a $1.3billion loan this quarter? That’s gotta eat into the books just a bit I’d imagine

I think it was also stated that they paid back over a billion in loans as well very recently. Honestly what we are watching is a company going through its stages of growth. It’s still a very young company and I think we lose sight of that sometimes. We assume they are as established as Dodge or Chevy who are decades and a century old.

This is all in the 10-k. $1 billion loss for 2018, $388mil of that was from operations (no financing or investing involved here) DESPITE them selling $400mil in credits. So without the credits they'd have lost about $800mil on their cars alone....before even paying the $663 million in interest.
[MENTION=396]Mike K[/MENTION] I'm curious your opinion. Lots of interesting info in their financial reports
 

sickmint79

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Well of course it would lean towards wealthier people. First off, poor people don’t buy new cars, especially cars over $30k new. Also it’s not a check the government gives you, it’s a tax credit so your tax liability for the year has to be over $7500 which guess would put you making more money than a poor person

sure, but it still leans more towards the wealthier side of people who are buying new cars. and i question why these people should get one at all. i'm not wealthy by any stretch, and you bet i'd take the incentive if i was buying a tesla or a prius. do i think one should actually be offered to me though? fuuuuuck no.

I feel like there are quite broad views of what “wealthy” is on this forum. Prius cars are a dime a dozen. Shit the volts are all over now. No they didn’t sell as well as the Tesla’s or 3s but they also didn’t get great range and were not the best to look at. But in their defense they do appear to be made extremely well.

But again what are you classifying as wealthy? If someone goes out and buys a new volt for 33 grand and puts 8 grand down and makes payments for 72 months that makes them wealthy? I’m not hating on anyone but I feel you bashing volt and Prius owners is a weak argument for wealth.

i wasn't trying to imply the subsidy goes to objectively rich people - just that it skews higher up the income scale, to the point i don't think it should really be done. vs. say, food stamps, subsidizing poor people so they can actually eat. if we are going to transfer some benefit around, it should be money to poor people, not to me.

i'm not "bashing volt and prius owners" by any stretch. i'm saying i'd rather subsidize poor people than wealthy ones. or how about not taxing 150k household A to help in part pay for 150k household B's car. (of course, that would assume we are even actually paying for the subsidy instead of just running a deficit.)
 

jason05gt

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Kensington

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https://www.thedrive.com/news/27784...out-bailout-with-capital-raise-of-2-3-billion

esla has had a disastrous few months. The company saw sales plummet, reservations disappear, battles with the Securities and Exchange Commission, store closures that it owes $1.6 billion for, investors flee, and odd battles between the company’s founder Elon Musk and random people on Twitter. Defeat, however, isn’t an option for the electric vehicle giant as it offers a glimmer of hope via an SEC filing affirming it will make public 2.7 million shares—worth $642.3 million—and offer $1.35 billion in convertible senior notes, to buoy the company’s reserves.

Within the SEC filing, Tesla made it known that Musk is interested in purchasing $10 million of the forthcoming public shares. This purchase would enhance his already considerable grip on the company’s shares—he currently owns 19-percent.

Along with Musk’s own share purchase plan, Tesla is looking to offer $1.35 billion worth of convertible senior notes that would be then due in five years. Though not the first time Tesla has looked to bring in cash reserves through debt raises, this would be one of the largest in the company’s short history. The market, however, will likely be unsure of how to react to the company’s latest filing and intentions as just last week, Tesla announced that it had lost $702 million during Q1 of 2019. Tesla also released that its cash reserves had fallen to $2.2 billion, which according to the Wall Street Journal, represents a 40-percent loss over the “previous three-month period.”

Tesla’s market turmoil could also be worsened by a massive share sell-off by Fidelity Investments. Yesterday, Bloomberg reported that Fidelity’s many funds had sold off more than 1.4 million shares of Tesla in March and was likely caused by the recent stock price fluctuations. Fidelity Investments, however, still holds 5.24 million shares, but according to Bloomberg’s reporting, “The Fidelity funds have been steadily reducing their stake in Tesla since the end of 2016 when they reported owning a combined 22 million common shares, the equivalent to a 13.7 percent stake.”

Though it pales in comparison to the millions of stock shares being bought and sold respectively by Musk and Fidelity, an SEC filing made by Tesla’s Chief Technical Officer Jeffrey B. (JB) Straubel—JB is Tesla’s second in command behind Musk—indicated that he sold off 20,000 shares of Tesla’s stock on April 26 of this year. Recently, Tesla Board member Brad W. Buss also sold off large portions of his Tesla stock portfolio.

News of Tesla’s forthcoming offering has seen the stock price raise slightly in early trading, giving investors a reason to continue to hope for its financial success. Tesla, however, faces real difficulties and needs to deliver on promised deadlines, deliveries, and the forthcoming Chinese Gigafactory to ensure its continued existence.
 

Kensington

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c4jt321.png

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guspech750

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Absolute worst case scenario imo is that somebody will buy the company out. The value of the brand name and their technology and most important their machine learning data collected from their fleet is wayyyyyyy more valuable than the market cap of the company.
That's what I was thinking. I can see Fiat/Dodge buying them. After all Dodge is really known as a producer of gas guzzling V8 cars. Other manufacturers are investing and producing electric and electric hybrid cars. I could see Dodge swooping in and buying a bankrupt Tesla cheap. Just like they did when Dodge bought AMC to acquire Jeep.
 

FirstWorldProblems

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I just really don't see cost cutting going well for a company that has poor vehicle quality and never meets production targets.

With how high the demand for their vehicles is, it's really only the fault of the execs that they haven't been able to turn a consistent profit yet. They're trying to expand too fast IMO.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if they end up getting bought out by someone else, maybe VW.
 

jason05gt

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Absolute worst case scenario imo is that somebody will buy the company out. The value of the brand name and their technology and most important their machine learning data collected from their fleet is wayyyyyyy more valuable than the market cap of the company.

Tesla could license their battery, motors, and software to other manufacturers. I'm sure that could be a source of significant revenue.
 
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