Turbo, TVS or 2.9 crusher whipple - Opinions welcome

Jokerzl

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Well kennebell is gone. That dang actuator sucked on the street. I want a street machine. So I'm either going single turbo 76 mm. Problem is I weigh 6000 lbs. No trans brake options. Expensive as hell to make fast out of the hole. Unless you guys no otherwise.

Twin screw or roots is better off on my set up. Now the TVS more effective under the curve then the kennebell. Now in the higher Rpms the kennebell kicks the TVS to the curb just based on sheer size.. Whipple 2.3 vs TVS the TVS wins under 20 lbs. My truck at 23 lbs at valve float with the kennbell. I'm thinking 21 lbs on the TVS I can gain my low end(under the curve) back. Street ability is back and the hp and torque can be had at the track with nitrous. I dot go to often anymore so that's no big deal for me.

Whipple crusher has major clearence issues with the firewall. Still awaiting a 2.9 crusher to test fit

So I'm thinking ultimately the truck will get a TVS.

Truck goes up on jack stands in a month for a full top end refreshment.

Top end needs to be rewired and vacuum line redone do to the new blower choice.

 

chet3310

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Tvs hands down. Glad I switched from a kb and a whipple. Tons more torque down low where you want street power.
 

blck10th

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I've seen a ton of people happy with the tvs. I have no personal experience. I had a gen 1 whipple and then went to a 2.8 H LC KB. And I can't dream of using anything else. Fits perfect runs awesome. But your truck has about 2200 lbs on my car. So not a direct comparison.
 

Jokerzl

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I've seen a ton of people happy with the tvs. I have no personal experience. I had a gen 1 whipple and then went to a 2.8 H LC KB. And I can't dream of using anything else. Fits perfect runs awesome. But your truck has about 2200 lbs on my car. So not a direct comparison.

That actuator goes from no boost to 14 lbs of boost. I'm only getting -12 vacuum at idle. What this causes is for the actuator to slam shut quickly under 1/4 throttle acceleration my truck goes into 10-14 lbs of boost and it rips the tires off. So I have to drive like a slowpoke. I want to beat on my truck with some partial throttle runs
 

turtleman

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That's how that actuator is really supposed to work? That's terrible! Why would anybody want that
 

rocket5979

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That actuator goes from no boost to 14 lbs of boost. I'm only getting -12 vacuum at idle. What this causes is for the actuator to slam shut quickly under 1/4 throttle acceleration my truck goes into 10-14 lbs of boost and it rips the tires off. So I have to drive like a slowpoke. I want to beat on my truck with some partial throttle runs

If you want slower boost response then why not go turbo and control it with either speed based boost or boost by gear.
 

turtleman

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Instant boost response isn't a bad thing. Most of us are looking for that very thing; as long as the power can be hooked.
Instant is, of course, favorable but instant as a function of throttle like a +displacement supercharger aught to be, not like an on/off switch which is what it sounds like that bbv is behaving like. One of the best things about +displacement blowers is the seamless instant fine control of power. It's very easy to recover from a little wheel spin with a blower and get back goin again but if you have no variation between 0 and 14psi well that sucks
 

Jokerzl

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That's how that actuator is really supposed to work? That's terrible! Why would anybody want that


You should of road in my truck on a rainy day when all of a sudden your at 1/4 throttle it's pouring and you slam into third because race valve body at about 35 and the actuator slams shut 10 lbs of boost come on out of no where computer senses boost puts you into wot tuning and now your in a sideways slide with 600 plus hp and 700 ft lbs on 20s need I say more. All this happens with no movement in the peddle you are still holding at 1/4 throttle. It did this on dry pavement as well.

With a spring controlled actuator I would have some control over the truck with the peddle. With the kennebell actuator it's boost on or boost off.

The transmission load, low vacuum and way the cams act. All effect this parameter and we spent 10+ hours street driving and tuning. Nothing I did changed it
 

Jokerzl

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If you want slower boost response then why not go turbo and control it with either speed based boost or boost by gear.

Torque down low moves this big pig. With a TVS we are seeing 700 plus that should be plenty for the street and where the TVS falls off In the rpm band I plan to spray with a progressive controller. Should be good for 750 plus and 900 plus ft lbs
 

rocket5979

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Instant is, of course, favorable but instant as a function of throttle like a +displacement supercharger aught to be, not like an on/off switch which is what it sounds like that bbv is behaving like. One of the best things about +displacement blowers is the seamless instant fine control of power. It's very easy to recover from a little wheel spin with a blower and get back goin again but if you have no variation between 0 and 14psi well that sucks
That's just how the bypass valve is supposed to work on a positive displacement blower being that it is activated by vacuum, or lack thereof. I have had a Kenne Bell blower on my Explorer for a while now and, back when I used to drive it, I never minded the instant boost response. I quite enjoy seeing the needle snap from ~10psi vacuum to 20 psi boost in a blink of an eye.

Sure, with a turbo you do not have the ease of quick throttle modulation to control wheelspin once it starts, but you can also control it via an EBC to bring power on more slowly so as to prevent spin in the first place, which really helps control the power on the street. That's why I run an Eboost EBC on my twin turbo G8. Flip of a switch goes from daily driver mode to kill mode. That's not as easily done with a blower, though there are some mildly obscure options out there. I haven't personally tested them, so I cannot speak towards their effectiveness, but they seem promising in concept.
 

rocket5979

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Torque down low moves this big pig. With a TVS we are seeing 700 plus that should be plenty for the street and where the TVS falls off In the rpm band I plan to spray with a progressive controller. Should be good for 750 plus and 900 plus ft lbs


I am somewhat confused regarding the reasoning to achieve your goal here. It strikes me as conflicted. In one comment you mention not liking to have to fight with traction issues at low speed, and then continue on to say that you want lots of torque down low for moving your heavy truck along. Usually these are mutually exclusive to one another. More torque/quicker torque response = less traction and vice versa.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start looking at more suspension mods to allow the truck to hook the power. At least then those two ideas would be able to coexist better. Better than switching from one version of a PD blower to another IMO; though that decision seems to have come and gone. It should net more overall good if you really want to drop those ET's. Another option would have been to pulley the existing blower to decrease boost enough to control traction off of the line (or just drop spark timing advance in that portion of the tune to kill it too) and then supplement power on the big end with the progressive shot, like you mentioned. The suspension would be the better permanent fix, but obviously comes at a price, too.
 

Jokerzl

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http://youtu.be/jYn504Rd5vw

No problem hooking at the track

If I want to hook it hooks

What you need to understand is this is only at 1/4 throttle. I never mentioned wot or launching. Or track I said on the street.TVS has a spring controlled actuator and doesn't slam shut it has a little resistance against vacuum. A kennebell doesn't have a spring in it's actuator and it doesn't have that little resistance. I'll take a video tonight to show you the difference. You will see

Isixty foots. Not a problem at all.
 

Jokerzl

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I suck at showing talking writing but you get the jist with the visual
 

Jokerzl

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The kennebell actuator closes easier under partial throttle driving vs a TVS or whipple actuator
 

rocket5979

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http://youtu.be/jYn504Rd5vw

No problem hooking at the track

If I want to hook it hooks

What you need to understand is this is only at 1/4 throttle. I never mentioned wot or launching. Or track I said on the street.TVS has a spring controlled actuator and doesn't slam shut it has a little resistance against vacuum. A kennebell doesn't have a spring in it's actuator and it doesn't have that little resistance. I'll take a video tonight to show you the difference. You will see

Isixty foots. Not a problem at all.


It has been a while since I played with the vacuum bypass actuator on my KB 2.2, but if I remember correctly, when the engine is off and thus not making any vacuum, the bypass butterfly valve is closed (as if it were in boost) and the actuator is of course in its "resting" full length position. When the engine starts, with the TB closed, then the bypass gets sucked open via manifold vacuum acting to retract the actuator arm to allow airflow to bypass the compressor screws. So, with that understood, as the actuator arm moves from full length to retracted position it is when the supercharger is going into "vacuum bypass mode", and when the actuator arm moves from retracted position to full length it is when the supercharger is going into "boost mode". So, since the extra springiness of the TVS actuator assists in transitioning the actuator rod from retracted to full length, then it is actually closing the bypass butterfly valve sooner because that extra spring rate is helping overcome the resistance imposed by the vacuum on the diaphragm at an earlier point in the vacuum to boost transition.


Cliffs:

If when the actuator rod is retracted the supercharger is in bypass, then when the actuator rod is full length it is in boost. That would mean that any force that assists in the rod traveling from retracted to full length in a quicker period of time would in turn also assist in the supercharger transitioning from bypass to boost mode more quickly.



Am I missing something here? It would seem that the extra spring rate in the TVS bypass would have the opposite affect of what you are saying. Perhaps there is something else in the TVS blower vac bypass design that accounts for the longer transition into boost. Thanks for the video though, I haven't played with the TVS blowers much.
 

Jokerzl

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Kennbell actuators require -11 vacuum before they start to close or cause damage to supercharger. They also have a -5 vacuum actuator from what I have been told.

When I'm driving pending speed I'm around -12-10 at cruising speeds. When you reach these vacuum areas kennebell says any acceleration just to pass someone just a little gas slams the actuator shut. The actuator slams shut under very little load. It shouldn't do this hence the boost on boost off. There should be a progression in the boost rise.

The spring rate actually gives it resistance both ways.
 

rocket5979

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The spring rate actually gives it resistance both ways.
It doesn't appear so from the video since the TVS bypass snaps to full length position with considerably more force than the KB one. The added spring force appears to be acting in only one direction, which is pretty congruent with the physics of how compressed springs work, too.

Not trying to seem like I am only here to give you a hard time, because I am not; but I do not see anything to substantiate your idea of the KB closing more quickly than the TVS based upon the actuator differences. From what I see, and I am not exactly a dummy when it comes to analysis of a functioning mechanical system, I do not see the video supporting what you're saying. Perhaps there is more to the operation of the TVS bypass actuator than what I am able to see in the video. I could see it performing the way that you mention if boost were able to push the diaphragm of the TVS actuator beyond the natural resting point that I see in the video (when you release the vacuum from it with your thumb), thus further elongating the rod while now pushing against the resistance of the diaphragm again, but meeting resistance from the other direction.


I agree with the rest of what you mean, in terms of wanting the actuator to slam the bypass valve shut more slowly, thus feathering in the boost over a slightly longer duration though...
 

Jokerzl

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Well your forgetting an eaton bypass valve has pull from from both top and bottom of the actuator. Spring

Kennebells only pull from one way
 

rocket5979

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Well your forgetting an eaton bypass valve has pull from from both top and bottom of the actuator. Spring

Kennebells only pull from one way

Come again? Or are you referring to what I was saying in the emboldened portion of my previous post regarding the TVS bypass actuator pushing past the diaphragm's natural resting point?
 

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