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🔧 Technical Turbo LS4 with 4T80-E build.

Trinten

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I'm hoping that's a good 'holy shit'? lol.
Here's the only pic I took today after we got things mostly buttoned up in the front. Under the XFI is the XIM and TCU, placed vertically. The bolt on the battery is indeed 'long', there's a nut on there to act as the fastening point. The outjutting is for easy of connecting a battery maintainer or jumper cables. I asked Mike why not just use the top posts for trickle and jumps (if needed), he said he had a strange experience with that once, and preferred not to do it that way.

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Yes, the radiator is out for the moment so we could get to a few other things.
 

Trinten

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Still waiting on powder coating, so we put some things back in the car for now so we could move forward.

Mike finished a few odds and ends today, including getting the vacuum manifold/distributor all hooked up, and the brake booster to vacuum as well.
Once that was done, we reconnected our beta-transmission harness, started the car up, and carefully drove it down a dead-end road to see if it would shift. This also highlighted the amount of engine tuning left to do, it was running pretty lean anytime we were giving it gas. We also were taking things very easy here, there's still some parts of the suspension mounting points that are just tack-welded, and we wanted to make sure the brakes were going to work properly.

The good news is, the transmission did not default to "limp home" mode. The bad news is, it didn't shift out of first. Sensor, setting, or wire(s). First thing Mike will do is confirm the VSS output sensor is working (and check the wiring for it by happenstance). If both of those check out, then it's something we missed in the TCU settings.

We also decided we either need to find a way to plumb in the TecoMotive coolant sensor in closer to the engine or find out if the ohms range their sensor uses is the same as the GM sensor and we can do a split from the feed going to the FAST into the TecoMotive water pump controller.

The TecoMotive also has a lot of advanced settings options, but it works sort of like a combination lock. You start at 0, then do a 3 digit code, and the last thing you leave it on is the overall program you want those mods to apply to. It's not so much complex as it is tedious, and looks like it takes some practice on timing/speed so it doesn't think you're choosing an option that you didn't intend.

We thought it was in a 'pulsed' mode where it would be doing a slow trickle feed even at cold temps, but that didn't seem to be the case, the temp at the engine got to 200, the hoses at the radiator were dead cold and the primary radiator fan hadn't kicked on yet. So for today we switched it to one of it's "test modes", where it runs the pump and fan at full tilt. That fixed our cooling issues. After idling for about fifteen minutes the temp crept up to about 175 and stayed there.

The second radiator fan is being controlled by the FAST, and set to come on when the coolant hits 160 or when the A/C is running, and that was working perfectly.

Lastly, power steering in the Fiero is awesome. Sitting still on 255 Michelins and I could turn the steering wheel with two fingers behind one of the spokes.
 

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Discount Tire had a sale going on for one of the tires I wanted to put on my Z06 wheels. So I now have the Nitto NT555 G2s. 275/40-17 in the front, 295/40-18 in the back. I thought about getting 305/35-18 in the back, but apparently the tire-to-road patch will be bigger with what I got.

We also discovered that two of the coupe Vette wheels had a very slow leak, that was gradually accelerating (it took a year to get low the first time, then a few months, then a few weeks...). So we brought those in to DTC at the same time. They claimed they couldn't find the leak. Okay, so for now the Z06s will go on and stay on there. I'll figure out what I want to do with the coupe wheels later.

We drove it a little more today, doing some tuning and trying to get the transmission to behave. Discovered the new VSS was bad. Put in another one, verified we were getting signal. Now validating wiring. We discovered that the instructions that came with the box are for the TCU-EZ, which is a different diagram than the TCU 2.0. I've emailed the company and Summit Racing to get the right information.

If I don't hear from either of them with the right instructions by Tuesday, I'll burn up my lunch hour trying to call TCI and hopefully get through to someone.

Eye candy!

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Trinten

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No forward progress yet, just ruling things out. After a surprising number of chases, we finally got the correct manual and wiring diagram from TCI. Their tech support so far leaves much to be desired. From searching for solutions to our newest mystery, I found many people had this same inconsistent level of competence from them.

The TCI TCU we have is not seeing any VSS input. We validated signal at the wires with a voltmeter. The TCU has a section where you can set which item (RPM, VSS, Turbine sensor, etc) is reading from which input. We cycled though the different options in the monitor, such as setting the turbine speed sensor to be the VSS, to try to get something. Nada.

There is a former TCI TCU engineer out there that has helped people on other forums with odd issues with this controller, so we're trying to get a hold of him. The most recent guy that Mike talked with at TCI tried to insist two things that didn't make sense to Mike:
1. The Turbine speed input would "throw things off" even if it was mapped to the right place, and to disable it since it's not needed for the TCU to do it's job. Then why have it?
2. That even though the sensor tests good (we see activity when the wheels turn), to replace it "only with a GM OEM sensor." Okay fine, so I ordered one of those.
2a. When Mike tried to press the guy to find out what the next diagnostic step would be if this didn't solve it, the guy simply kept saying "This'll fix it." So we'll see.

If we can't get this thing to play nice soon, I have two other aftermarket transmission controllers bookmarked that also specifically call out controlling the 4T80E.

We've got 6 weeks left to get quite a bit done, and at least going to lose one day Memorial day weekend for a good friend's milestone birthday party.
 
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Trinten

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Holy hell progress with the transmission controller!

So when trying to figure out why the TCU wasn't seeing anything from the VSS, I found a thread on another forum where someone had a problem with the first generation TCI TCU. He was helped out by one of TCI's engineers.

Searching more for this guy, I found other posts on other car boards where he was helping out people with the TCU. The problem is, everywhere I could find him, he hadn't been on since late last year!

To spare the details, I did some digging, found a few ways to get in touch with him, and used all of them. With success! We'll come back to my reaching out to Kevin.

Mike had the idea to try to figure out if the issue was with the TCU. His truck has a 4L70 transmission. The controller has a base file for a 4L60. Mike said the 60 and 70 are close enough in operation that it should at least register a solid VSS. So he jacked up the back of his truck, made a harness with long wire leads, and we wired it up. We first tried it with the 4L80 file we'd been working with. No joy. So we fired up a 4L60 baseline file... and we see VSS!

So Mike thinks about it and says "let's see if the 4L60 sees your VSS." Wiring change... and it does! FINALLY.
Of course, it's reading everything wrong because of reluctor tooth count, but the software is flexible/configurable enough that he can change those parameters.
A bunch of changes later, including which solenoids to engage for the different gears, ratios, pulses... a bunch of stuff, Mike takes it for a test drive. He said it shifted from 1 to 2 nicely, but then went to 4 and then locked the Torque Converter!

So Mike said he'd have to go through things to figure out why we're missing 3rd.

On my way home, Kevin (the aforementioned guy who used to work at TCI) calls and texts me! We exchange a few texts, then a phone call. I explain everything that I could remember. He was super patient and said "I think I know what's going on. It's been a minute since I worked on that, so I need to do a little digging to refresh my memory. There's likely two wires he'll still need to re-pin, but you might have all the settings right." so I got his email and started a chain with him and Mike, so Mike can send him our 4L80 config file and the 4L60 file we were running today. With any luck, we'll hear back from Kevin a few days after that with the solution to our missing 3rd gear, and hopefully an optimized file!!

We also discovered my Corvette steering rack has developed a nasty leak. I asked Mike if it the seal was serviceable, he said it wasn't. So I need to order that. And one of my Z06 wheels is leaking air!! I don't know what the hell is going on at that Discount Tire location, but they seriously need to prep wheels better so this doesn't freaking happen.

Mike is taking his Grand National to a big GN event in Bowling Green Kentucky this upcoming week. So we lose next weekend to work on things. Memorial day weekend we will lose Saturday for our mutual friends birthday, but we'll have Sunday and Monday to hopefully work on things.

I will admit my stress level is creeping up a bit with the approaching deadline for Carlisle.
 

Trinten

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Transmission issue seems to be resolved!

The weather was not cooperating for most of yesterday morning, but Mike had a 10x10 tent that we put up over the car and we'd move it as needed. There are likely some more tweaks we could/should do with the transmission tune, but 3rd gear is now working.

The problem seemed to be the gear ratio settings (not final drive, but for each gear) were off. That lead to a "GIGO" situation with the computer trying to figure out what gear to put the car into, based on RPM and VSS. We did validate that the wiring was already setup as Kevin (the former TCI engineer) suggested, and tune wise he pointed out the gear ratios were wrong and provided us the proper numbers.

Mike wanted to take it on a longer drive to get it up to higher speeds and test 4th and the lockout, but we still don't have the shocks on there yet, so the transverse springs and speed makes the car a little floaty/bouncy. He expects it should be fine, since it was jumping right from 2nd to 4th a few weeks ago.

So we're now working on doing the final installation of the ECU/TCU wiring harnesses, getting the bulkhead/firewall pass-through made. Mike really hates the dipstick I have, it's out of a LS powered Escalade, it was the longest dipstick I could find at the time. It's partially in the way of where the stock harness comes through the bulkhead, and space there is also limited because of the coil packs.

I did find a replacement C5 vette steering rack. The guy selling it said it wasn't leaking. Fingers crossed. So that'll be going in next weekend, then we're going to do the "alignment in the bag" to get things close, so Mike can then get the shock mounts welded in, finish welding up the A-arm mounts, and install the shocks.

Cold start up tune is (to me) really good. Mike thinks it could be better. He also swears we have a cylinder that isn't always firing. He thought this before and we changed out all the spark plugs -- they were all badly fuel-fouled from the car running rich while we chased down gremlins and did tuning. When it's sitting there idling you don't notice anything, he says he feels it when driving it. He thinks one of my coil packs is bad, so I'm going to find a reputable coil pack tester setup, versus trying to jerry-rig a different coil pack setup in there to test, then still have to guess-and-swap-and-testdrive each of the coils on that pack till the issue is gone.

Frustratingly, one of my Z06 wheels had a slow leak. So I made an appointment with Discount Tire last Saturday for them to find it. I rolled the wheel in, and thankfully the same guy who checked me in when I got the Z06 tires mounted (and they unsuccessfully tried to find the leak on the two base Corvette wheels and then brushed me off to go to a wheel shop) was there. I told him "Look, this is the second set of wheels you guys have done for me where I have this problem. And they are for the same car. I don't care how long it takes, please find and fix the leak on this thing. I'll give the tech 20 bucks. I have two big road trips coming up and I need reliable tires."

I then went to lunch, came back after I got their "it's done" text. The tech rolls the wheel out to me and says "yeah, it was a bead leak. I cleaned and polished it up real good and used a little more bead sealer, it should be good now." I thanked him and gave him the 20 bucks. So far it's holding air!

99% of the powdercoating is done. The last thing left is the removable cross member sections in the back. Right now they are just VHT sprayed and will likely stay that way. But the headlight bucket assemblies are powder coated and they look good!

Other friends of mine that are Fiero enthusiasts were in town so they were hanging out for a bit. He wasn't there for the test drives, but he did take some video of Mike doing some tuning and then driving the car back to it's temporary parking spot. I asked him to upload that for me when he gets back to Michigan.

There are some things on the punch list I don't expect we'll get done in time for Carlisle, but none of them are necessary to make that drive. So pulling forward my last list and using strikeouts...

1. A few more auxiliary sensors need to be wired in.
2. Idle tuning.
3. Radiator pinhole needs to be welded up
4. Coolant pump driver needs to be configured
5. Transmission harness wiring needs to be built
6. Intercooler hoses need to be run to/from the reservoir.
7. Alignment checked
7a. If necessary: adjustments to upper control arm bracket positioning
8. Finish welding up/boxing in upper control arm brackets
9. Powdercoating
10. Refresh the steering column (new ignition module, key cylinder, signal stalk)
11. Slap in a basic interior, even if it looks janky for now.
12. Take back one of the wheels/tires to Discount Tire and ask them to check it for the slow leak, as well as rebalance it (one of the freaking weights is already dangling loose! so wash the barrel before I take it up there).
13. Put as many miles on it as possible without getting too far from my house or Mikes, to catch any bugs. I suspect I will become very familiar with the I-40 beltline around Raleigh...
 

Trinten

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Productive day... but not productive enough.

Also in today's broadcast, a lesson learned in buying/using plastic tubs to store stuff for car projects right from the start, and putting more care into fastener organization!

Some years ago, there was an "alignment in a bag" tool called QuickTrick, that I got cheap on a flash sale. Today Mike used it to do the alignment on the Fiero, after checking his garage floor for level with the largest freaking level I've ever seen. He said the kit was like another one he'd used before, but this one was a little more flimsy (the one he had used before ran around 800 bucks. I think I paid 200 or 300 for mine? It's been a while and I am not up to digging through my thread right now). It was functional though, and he said it was something that a person could use repeatedly, but they had to take care when tightening things up.

The drawback to the system is that after a measurement is taken, you jack the car up to make an adjustment, lower it, then drive the car forward/backwards a few times to get it to settle, then measure again. So not a fast system by any means. By the time I got to his place around 9:30, he had already put a few hours (and a few trips to the hardware store for fasteners of the proper length(s), along with spacers and such), and it still took us till about 4pm for him to finish. Thankfully the back was almost dead on, he only had to tweak the driver side. But the front was WAY off.

He then started working on mounting the shocks... annnnd I couldn't find the bolt "hat" that goes on top of the shock. And I couldn't find the rear shocks. He had me take some stuff home a few months ago, and I have one tub filled with nothing but Vette suspension parts, so I hope I find it in there.

I also knew we wouldn't have time to put on the spiffy not-Fiero side mirrors, so I went about putting my OEM ones back on. And again, I don't know why the heck I didn't just put the nuts on the studs of the mirror, but I didn't. I did eventually find them, but damn it was a lot of wasted time. I did put on the new 'gaskets' / bases for the mirrors that I got from the Fiero Store. However, since it's been almost 5 years since I took these mirrors off, I couldn't recall how to route the wire or get the harness side to it. lol. So I'll need to look for a thread here to figure out how to reconnect all that.

Technically it's only two weekends left before Carlisle. Once the shocks are on, we can throw on door panels, toss in seats, and jerry-rig the remaining wiring and it could be driven. There's still a handful of things that won't be done yet, though nothing that would harm the car from normal driving. It'll just be noisy and look really janky inside (no dash, messed up carpeting, etc).

I'm debating on skipping Carlisle. Mike and I agreed that the 40th is a must. He did say if I really wanted to go to Carlisle, he'd loan me his truck and trailer (which is a huge deal), and I could trailer it up there, and drive it around locally - which would be more tolerable, not long stretches on the highway with half the sound deadening and interior in the car missing, no A/C, etc. Obviously if I do that, I won't go on the club cruise.

Going would also give him a full dedicated weekend to work on his Fiero for the 40th. Since he's doing an improved 3800 swap (no plumbing pipe here), more of it is straight forward. He said he's also okay with cutting corners to get his car on the road in time for the 40th, but doesn't want to do that with my car, which I appreciate.

So we'll see. Next weekend will likely be the "Go/No Go" decision for Carlisle. Wish me luck!!
 

sktchy

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Good to hear the trans is working right now. Have you tried swapping coil packs around to see if the miss follows?

From a veteran standpoint on tires bead sealer is absolute bullshit and don't go back to that store ever. A real tire shop has a tube of black permatex loaded in a caulking gun and a nice single bead all the way around after thorough resurfacing (assuming these wheels have typical chrome peel and corrosion causing the issue and may need ground down til the alloy is smooth and even) will do the job, stand up to the heat and even help with keeping the tires from spinning on the wheels under hard acceleration causing a need to rebalance (it happens more than you think, don't believe me get a paint pen and mark your valve stem locations and do some hard launches where they grab)

But bead sealer, is the most hackish, lazy, bullshit, snake oil, hope it holds til he takes it to another shop shit you can possibly find in a shop and you tipped the guy to break the beads and goober your shit up so that it spits out onto your wheels when you put weight on it and peels off the rubber like a fruit roll-up when it dries.
 
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Trinten

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Swapping coil packs is something Mike mentioned wanting to do, it would narrow down which bank it is, then we'd still have to walk through the packs to find the bad one.

Thank you for telling me about the bead sealer. I hope what they used was actually the Permatex stuff, and they just call it bead sealer. If it acts up, I will take your advice and go to another shop, calling ahead and asking some probing questions before I give them the background. Helps reduce the chance of a shop telling me what I want to hear if they are also going to be shady.
 
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sktchy

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If they said bead sealer it was trash lol. So if you squeezed a whole tube of black rtv in a coffee can, and then pissed in it, shook it up good and stuck a brush in the top, it would be basically the same thing.

What they do is use the bead breaker to hold the tire back and they brush it on over all the bullshit, then air it back up and give it back to you so the work order is off their hook until it comes back again. Need to find an independent shop that doesn't stack sets of 4 and an alignment on guys every hour of every day while they try and cram flats in between or get yelled at by the counter guys.
 

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Today was a really productive day!

Mike mocked up and welded in all of the shock mounts. He also did the reinforcements for the upper control arm mounting tabs on some of them, I think there's still two left he needs to do.

Once the shocks were in, we cleared out all the boxes from the passenger side and we both jumped in, so I could drive it while he started doing some mobile tuning. My smart FPR was making it a bit challenging for him, as I had to let off the throttle or get on it, and the FPR would tell the fuel pump to spin up or slow down, it was making the FAST freak out a little with the fuel pressure readings, so he's working on that.

We did find that what we thought was a bad coil was just a lean condition, which was a relief! So we cruised around a bit, and he gradually dialed up the boost. So far he's also happy with the torque converter, too. The transmission is shifting into all gears properly, though he wants to go in and tweak the shift points now (since it's using default shift points for a 4L65).

Only remaining issue is getting the Tecomotive controller to play nice with the BMW pump. I think I mentioned how Rei helped us out, and I emailed the support guys with some questions and they were really great about giving me some step-by-step instructions and additional education, but the controller isn't behaving as they said it would during the programming phases. So while we were driving it today, the engine was getting pretty darn warm. Next weekend we'll set the unit on one of it's test modes (which doesn't require any special steps to do), which tells it to run the fan and pump at 100%. This will at least let us know for sure it can do the job, and then it's just a matter of getting the programing done correctly.

Next weekend I'll be out there on Saturday and Sunday. We won't have the A2W intercooler plumbed in time for Carlisle. Mike said we'd definitely get it to where he'd be comfortable with me driving it around on local streets, but he suggested I trailer it up to Carlisle and just drive it around up there. He didn't want me to have some issue and be stuck on the side of the interstate between the two locations. He simply won't have enough time to put enough miles on the car to make sure everything is going to be good for that long of a drive - and I appreciate his concern for my well being on that.

It does mean I need to start pricing out renting a truck (he'll loan me his trailer).

Now onto some pictures!

The Fiero sitting on it's new shocks.

sitting_on_shocks.jpg



The rear shock setup. This side doesn't have the reinforcements for the upper control arm tabs yet.

rear_shock_setup.jpg



The front shock setup. Mike realized that if he welded in the adapter plate, it would make getting things unbolted a pain. Because if he used zip nuts (maybe the wrong term, those ones like the nuts in the stock Fiero engine cradle), and one broke loose (also like in the stock Fiero engine cradle...) it would be a real ***** to address. So he's going to be adding some additional mounting points to the adapter plate.

front_shock_finished_1.jpg
 

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Well, after a few weekends of gradually putting on more miles on the car and working on the driveability tune... something has gone wrong with the transmission.

Here are the details on it, so any transmission experts can chime in.

Triple edge performance was pretty sure he had used a 2001+ transmission for my core. Last year (or the year before?) I picked up another late model 4T80 from the junkyard, and it's been just chilling. This is important later.

We’ve been putting some street miles on the swap (all 45mph or less, no highway yet) to do cruise tuning for the engine and monitor the transmission.
The temp of the transmission never went above 170. We’ve put on about 20 miles, with the only issue being the transmission unexpectedly downshifting at one point for a few moments then up-shifting again (we were cruising on flat road, throttle position hadn’t changed).

Last weekend when we returned from our lap, I checked the transmission fluid level and it was still on the “check cold” marker, so I added two more quarts – we figured after 20+ minutes of driving it would have been up in the “check hot” spot.

Today we go to do the next round (Transmission temp never got above 145 for this trip). a half-mile down the road, we hear a whining sound. I left off the gas, then resume, the sound goes away. It comes back as we slow/speed up. We head back home, check fluid, and it’s almost to the top of the neck. We check the transmission lines going to the radiator, and it’s very warm, and the lines going back were slightly warm.

We figured I overfilled it, aerated the fluid, and that caused the issues. We leave the cap loose and let it sit for a few hours, then use a fluid pump to pull 2 quarters of fluid back out.

We start it up, back into the street, and it won’t go into gear. Any gear. Putting it back in reverse also does nothing. I shut the car off, restart it, same same issues. While watching the TCU on the laptop, the TCU wasn’t seeing any request come in for it to go into any gear. We shut it off, unhook the transmission pigtail to get it to go into “limp home” mode, which it does, and we get it back to the garage.

Here’s where it got worrisome. As we were testing it (we were constantly checking fluid levels and watching the transmission fluid temp), when it warmed up enough (around 150), even “limp home” mode stopped working!

We shut it down, let it cool off for a few hours, left the harness disconnected, limp home mode worked and we moved it to it’s parking place for now.

While we were waiting for it to cool off, we start looking up teardown videos on the 4T80, because hey! We have a donor!! Mike says that we're looking for a pressure manifold switch. We watch the teardown video which is of a late model 4T80, and it doesn't have it, just the shift selector switch. Odd. So we look at the pigtail on my junkyard transmission, it has more pins than the pigtail on my transmission. So Mike thinks I have an earlier 4T80, which does have this pressure manifold sensor.

So I'm going to order the pressure switch and two new solenoids, I also emailed Triple Edge Performance and gave them the above info, asking for any insights.

This sucks.

Next thing, I finished rebuilding my headlights with 60mm buckets that were offered by someone on the Fiero Forum I'm part of. I get everything installed.... and the headlight cover on the passenger side collides with it when closing the hood, scraping through the powdercoat. *sigh*.

I texted the vendor and he was very kind in giving me some ideas and asking for more information. At the end, we discovered the bucket itself needed to be 'bent' to move it over. I have no idea how it was bent off from it's intended center to begin with.

For now we are leaving the headlight covers off, partially so we can make adjustments to everything else with the hood/lights, and partially to help let hot air vacate the radiator area for now.

We also can't find the instrument cluster we saved out of my car, so I used the cluster from the donor car (which is missing the RPM needle), and hooked up the connections and bolted it in place today --- mainly so I would have mounted switches for headlights and trunk popper, and could see my fuel gauge. For the near future, speedo and temperature information is going to come from the laptop talking to the FAST and TCU. Mike has a car laptop stand that he thinks he can adapt and install as a temporary measure, and he has a car power inverter he can loan me.

So yes... this interior is almost exactly how I was expecting to show up at Carlisle (just wanted to get the horn working)... and likely this is how it will show up this way at the 40th. I *might* have time to add interior door panels and install the awesome 3D Printed skeleton I have.

bare_minimum_interior.jpg



Last thing that threw me off when I was testing the headlights. I hit the switch, they flip up - yay. I turn them off. They go down a little (maybe 10% of the way?) PAUSE for about 2-3 seconds, then finish going down. The headlights both do this at the same time (so at least it's uniform!). So that's weird. I guess as long as they work!
 
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Trinten

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This weekend was a solid 21 hours of busting things out on Mike's 3800 swap, which includes the '88 cradle swap with it.

Yesterday we got the cradle with the engine in, Mike finished up the exhaust, I did an oil change and transmission fluid change, and started doing the brakes for him. We discovered both of the '88 rear calipers he had were toast. Boots destroyed on both, using the little twisty-tool thing to spin the piston down, we couldn't get it to seat all the way (enough for pads to fit on the rotors) before it bound up, and it making some "crunchy" noises along the way. So he's going to order calipers from the Fiero store tomorrow.

Coolant lines in his swap are all connected, we're just trying to find the strut tower "retaining rings" now. I did reach out to a friend with a bunch of Fiero parts to see if he had a spare set laying around. He's gotten some of the wiring done, he's going to work on it after work as much as possible this week to finish the wiring.

We also need to solve for the F23 shifter cable that I originally got from California Push Pull. Mine is badly seized up. We sprayed in some PB Blaster and worked the cable for about ten minutes, but it still takes about 10 pounds of pressure to move the gear selector side to side. I had seen some threads where people were asking about the length of the cable they needed to order for the F23 swap. The one I have is 72" eyelet to eyelet (... err, eyelet to ball joint center?). Mike wants me to get one 75" long so he can route it behind a heat shield he made .

Next weekend we'll be pulling my transmission to solve the mystery of the version. I have an updated copy of the software that talks to the aftermarket TCU, and it (now) includes a base config file for both revisions of the 4T80, which will simplify things for us greatly. It also makes me wonder if the TCU was sending conflicting commands to the Transmission. The earlier 4T80 used a pressure manifold setup, newer ones didn't. I don't know enough about transmission commands/mechanics, but I can imagine (and I am likely wrong), that an "old" command being sent to a new transmission, and the new transmission internals going "uh, no, we're doing this instead" can make for a bad time.

Mike said the inside of the junkyard trans I opened last week looked super clean, and he's inclined to just slap that one into my car. I'm a little iffy about it, for a few reasons including a notorious bushing/seal issue with the 4T80 that would make it leak like a sieve when driving. He said he'd slap new seals in there, too. Soooo. I dunno. I'll get those seals too and we'll see what we're dealing with next weekend.

He is still optimistic that we'll be driving my Fiero up to Michigan for the 40th. I'll be happy if we can trailer it and move it around on "limp home" mode. I told him I'd almost rather trailer it regardless, especially since we'd like to throw it on the dyno up there and (likely ) won't have time to do any dyno tuning down here... and if the transmission goes again... lol
 
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Turbocharged400sbc

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The pressure manifold switch assembly is for diagnostics. It's one reason why they removed it to save costs as they had plenty of data from the previous years as they cut all the $ and good parts out the manufacturing they can.

The primary difference is in how the Oem pcm Controls the transmission when it doesn't see a signal it goes to limp mode.

I don't see your controller having the on board diagnostics needed for those switches to verify circuits have hyd pressure
 
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Trinten

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We started Saturday working on Mike's 3800 swap, and made a lot of progress. He had the engine back in the car and I helped him with some odds and ends, like getting the shift cables hooked up and testing the range while he checked what the transmission was doing, so we could adjust the cables accordingly. We finished up at 11, changing to work on my car after lunch.

We needed to pull my transmission so we could inspect it for any damage after the odd behavior we had last time. All research on the symptoms indicated the pressure regulator solenoid was going bad.

Taking the transmission out was also a bit of a design test. Mike was fairly certain we could take out his removable upper control strut. So we went about disassembling the suspension on the driver side, unbolting the transmission from the engine, unbolting the flexplate, all the usual stuff that you need to split the engine and transmission. Mike was happy that a lot of his design concepts worked, it made getting to all but two bolts really easy.

We then tried to slide the transmission out through the driver side wheel well. Unfortunately, the lobe of the transmission has a flare that interfered with the engine. The body of the car kept us from pivoting the transmission in a way to clear it. So we wound up having to drop the cradle. You can see that flare in this picture.


lobe_interference.jpg



There's another thread here on TCG that talks about the 4T80 in depth, and mentioned an oddity that I haven't yet confirmed anywhere else. It stated that the 93-99 used a different signal for the pressure regulator solenoid (I think voltage reference?) and in the 00+ they switched to PWM. The article said that a 00+ stock ECU would run a 93-99 4T80, but the PWM would burn up the pressure regulator solenoid eventually. Here’s where I doubt that tidbit on the signal change – the part number for the pressure regulator solenoid (24220158) shows on Summit Racing as cross referencing across all years of Caddy’s that had the 4T80E. I would think that GM would have needed to switch part numbers if there was a concern of them getting burned up by the ECU.

This meant we needed to confirm which transmission I had. Triple Edge Performance was pretty sure all of their 4T80 cores were from year 2000+. Of course he had built the transmission for me 4ish years ago, so he was going by memory. We put on the Kent-Moore transmission arm, loaded it onto Mike's transmission stand, and let it drain, ready to open it up and start an inspection. Here it is, draining.


draining_fluid.jpg



Identifying if a 4T80 is an early model or late model is pretty easy. The early ones had a manifold pressure switch in them. Late models they upgraded the range selector switch with more electronics to also do the work of the manifold pressure switch. We took off the pan, and there was the manifold prssure switch.

The good news is, all the clutches looked good (just some very light glazing), nothing in the pan, the pumps are fine. The fluid was a little dark – likely from the overheating of the pressure regulator solenoid. So we replaced all the solenoids (pressure and shift) and filters (might as well).

After that was done, we put everything back together on the cradle, getting it ready to go back into the car.


reassembled.jpg



... here's where I'm a little angry at myself. In the past few weeks, I had been trying to find an actual 4T80E bin file that would work with the software that TCI uses. We had worked with a former TCI engineer and modified a 4L60 bin file to run my transmission. And maybe there's something in there with how that transmission interacts with it's pressure regulator solenoid that caused the issue.

The software is not proprietary. I found another company that uses the same stuff with their 4T80 controller. Strangely, their download didn't come with any preloaded bin files. Interestingly, they had an updated version of the software on their site as well. I download that, and it has TONS of base files, including two files for the 4T80 (denoting the year ranges). Thrilled, I played around with the software, which was just a 'smoother' version of their last version, with a few menu changes.

So after the engine was in, I gleefully hook my laptop up to the transmission controller, I tell the new software to connect. It tells me no controller could be found. Disappointed but not deterred, I figure "Okay, I can take this file and open it with the older software!" Nope. When I was checking it out and saved the file I failed to check the extension of the bin file. It's different. .TCU versus .BIN.

The new software doesn't have a "save as" a .BIN. Changing the extension doesn't work.

Of course, this is all discovered about 5pm on July 3rd. So no getting in touch with tech support or sales with questions. Tomorrow morning I'll be calling TCI and asking them if their product officially supports the 4T80 or not (a dragzine article where they spoke to people from Edlebrock/TCI said it did support it, but it's not listed on their site). If they say yes, I'll ask for the BIN files. If they say no, I'm going to call the second company and see if they have .BIN files for the 4T80.

If they say no, I'll talk to them about their product, and make sure it interfaces with FAST so it can get the needed inputs from FAST. I suspect trying to split wires from TPS, RPM, etc could be problematic.

If I have to buy a new controller, it's likely Mike won't have time to rewire everything to get it in, much less us have time to put all the miles on it that he wanted to make sure it'd be safe to drive to the 40th.

Fingers crossed the second company will send me a .BIN file for the shared-version of the software, and that solves the issue. Even then, not sure how things will go, there's still a few things we need to fix. While I still plan to be at the 40th, I'm preparing myself that it'll be as a passenger with Mike in his Fiero, or our mutual friend Chug in his.
 

Trinten

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COTS = commercial off the shelf software in this case?

Yes, it struck me as odd, too. They changed little things in the respective packages, putting their own Help files in, changing the Title info to match their company stuff, insert their company logo -- all the normal stuff you'd expect a company to be able to change to fit their use. Past that, every menu, button, icon, layout, etc is identical.
 

Mr_Roboto

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COTS = commercial off the shelf software in this case?

Yes, it struck me as odd, too. They changed little things in the respective packages, putting their own Help files in, changing the Title info to match their company stuff, insert their company logo -- all the normal stuff you'd expect a company to be able to change to fit their use. Past that, every menu, button, icon, layout, etc is identical.
I mean the hardware its self. Probably coming from some Chinese distributor charging maybe say $100 in parts unless there's a middle man getting a significant chunk of the action. I mean, it explains why they're all still expensive as they are some decades after introduction too. It's basically cartelling.
 

Trinten

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Got it, from what I can see, it appears to be different hardware. Or at minimum they've got their board and terminals orientated differently.
The engineer we worked with did talk about when he left, and when he talked about working on the version I have, he speaks about it like they designed it. Of course it could be anything.
 

Trinten

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So I reached out to TCI today, citing the Dragzine article and asking about 4T80 support. In short, they said "nope".

Okay, onto the next company, PCS. I call them (you know, before I spend money this time). The sales guy was transparent. "Technically it'll run a 4T80, but we don't officially support it. One of our dealers does though, I think. Here is his information." (the conversation was longer than that, covering my ECU, if their unit 'speaks' the same canbus language as FAST, etc).

So I asked why they had two software packages, and why one was showing a list of supported transmissions (including the 4T80) and the other didn't list any. His answer was weak at best, but I didn't push it at the moment - he said that the later revision software was for an older product they don't sell anymore, and when they send out the units and the software talks with it, then it lets you see the bin files (I know this is BS, but again, I let it slide for the moment. Especially since they don't officially support the 4T80 and I need to get a BIN from the dealer anyway). This was the sales department, so I wasn't expecting them to know all of the technical details.

So I call the dealer. He says "I'd need to make you a bin file." "So you haven't had it on any 4T80s yet?" "Not a 4T80, no. But I know it can do it."

Well, given my options are running out (I do have a THIRD company bookmarked), I ask him "Can you get it all to me by Friday? I need the controller, terminal kit, pins, everything." "Yes, do you need it there early?" "no, just sometime on Friday."

So there goes the money I indirectly saved by not being able to go to Carlisle. Friday I'm going to follow up with him and see if I can bribe him (literally) to be available on Saturday if we have any questions.

Do I think it'll be ready to go to Michigan in time? ... depends on when Mike is planning on going up that way (he's supposed to make some other stops to see friends up that way before the show). The odds are bad, but I'll be happy to be wrong.
 
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Trinten

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Despite putting in about 20 hours a weekend for the last month (though some of that was on Mike's 3800 swap, which had it's own issues), we weren't able to fix my transmission in time.

On July 3rd when we finished putting everything back in the car, we were so whipped we didn’t check anything outside of making sure the car started.

On Wednesday the 5th, because we were pretty certain our issues were born from our aftermarket controller, I chased down another vendor who had a solution where they cited the 4T80. I called them, they confirmed the hardware would handle it, etc. etc. So ordered it.

To skip ahead, before we tried out the new controller, we checked the lines through the car and transmission coolers – no obstructions (this was a recommendation from Triple Edge Performance). Then we started up the car, let things idle for a few minutes, and loosened the trans fluid return line, fluid was coming out pretty rapidly on the return line. We snugged that back up.

We checked the fluid level for “cold”, it was good. We then had a face palm moment. We didn’t test “limp home” mode back on July 3rd. We try all the gears without the computer hooked up to it, and nothing. The car just sat there. We even tried really giving it some gas (slowly depressing the accelerator, of course, just in case).

We did shut it down and hook up the computer for other diagnostics. The new PCS controller does interface with FAST XFI (yay!). However it was showing the same odd information on the gears as the old controller. The software should show "N" when it's in Park or Neutral. Instead, it thinks it's in 1st gear. There's also a "Shift" box with the number 2 in it. We don't know what that means. I asked the new guys we're dealing with. So the computer is saying that the transmission thinks it's in gear, when it's not.

Mike wants to swap out the entire lower valve body assembly into the late model 4T80, he really likes the idea of the manifold pressure switch over the electronic range selector switch. He just thinks that even though they have their own issues, a hydraulic driven part is a better diagnostic than hoping an electronic part told the correct shift solenoids to turn on, and wondering if the problem is the solenoid or the range selector electronics. This would effectively tell us if the upper manifold has some undiagnosed issue. It seems like a lot of effort for that, so I also emailed Triple Edge and asked for their insights on this.

Over the week, Triple Edge did update me on something that I read that was wrong (that's right, there's bad info on the internet!) GM 4T80e didn't switch over to a different style Pressure Regulator Solenoid, they switched to a PWM driving TCC solenoid! Thankfully, the new controller can easily be switched to run the later model TCC (I asked the dealer about that, he guided me to where to change it in the software). So that can be changed regardless of what we do.

We did discover that the heat from the headers had started to melt the shift cable. Check this out:


melted_shifter.jpg


So we have been hunting for a solution, and we came up with one. I broke off that molded end, Mike threaded the metal cable under it, we screwed on a ball joint end rod, and then he took out the staked ball fitting on the gear selector (which was too big for this ball joint end), and we used a bolt and some other hardware to connect it all together, making sure the travel was working. I didn't finish putting back together the shifter cable holder in the engine compartment - there was other stuff to do once we realized my car was not getting there on it's own.

Instead, it'll be arriving like this.

barely_on_the_trailer.jpg


The Z06 wheels did widen it up just a bit more than Mike hoped. It barely fits on the trailer, and we had to come up with an alternate solution to get the other ramp mounted to the trailer. Good times.
 

Trinten

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So when I got back into town on Monday evening I stopped by Mike's.
We unloaded my car from the trailer, and I did some datalogging per the new TCU dealer's request. Mike also hooked up his line pressure tool to the main line pressure test port on the transmission.

When the engine starts, the transmission pressure is at 90 PSI. Shifting through the gears, it drops to about 40 PSI and stays there, even when revving the engine. Going back into park then into gear again, pressure dropped even lower, and again didn't move.

So while an issue with one of the pumps is possible (and is Mike's bet on the problem), Dave (Triple Edge Performance) also pointed out it could be a failed stock pressure regulator valve or boost valve.

Both of them agree that a complete teardown is needed at this point to go through it. So going to see if it'll be easier/cheaper to find a local shop we trust or arrange LTT shipping back to Dave.

Dave is still insisting that this is a late model 4T80, however the internals don't line up to that, nor does the wiring. Even the pigtail on this one was different than on the late model we got from the junkyard.

The TCU dealer sent us the wiring diagram for the late model, Mike is going to build another harness for that, and we're going to swap in the late model transmission and see how well that one runs for now.

This Saturday we'll clean up the garage (we thrashed it pretty bad the last few weeks trying to get stuff done), then move the late model in there to get ready for the swap.
 

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