🔧 BUILD Turbo 3800 T56 Swapped G-body Grand Prix w/ Holley EFI

[bs009]

Good shipping job on the wheels from carid.com

Less likely to get Rob Dahm-ed on these since you can't see that there's really nice wheels inside the tires. Was a bit worried but this seems like it was absolutely the best way to have wheels shipped.

C5 brakes installed for the final time hopefully.

Pedal travels quite a bit more with these brakes and that does make sense, but I'm not a big fan of it. I assumed I had air in the lines for a while because it was so much more travel, but I've thoroughly bled it all and it's still the same. Going to pack some spare brake lines anyway though.

Debating whether or not I want to use a spacer on the front wheels now. Fitment is crazy tight

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

Just take the outboard pads against the belt sander for a second.

The only thing I found out you can do with the ICM is feed it up to 20 volts.
It limits the current to about 800mj, so the only way to get extra power out of it would be the voltage that allows the field to build strength faster on the coil primary side.

Well I shouldn't say that... you can search through your icm's for unicorns while triggering it and check the output current for a "hot" one...the one "master" that is on the TR now is actually measuring at nearly 850...its slave at just over 800mj

By master I am referring to the upper icm that actually uses the crank and cam signals to send the 7x to the pcm....... the other unit does not send that info to the pcm

 

[bs009]

Ended up just throwing some spacers on the wheels for now. I think I might be able to grind off a really small part on the calipers to make them clear, but I do also have some smaller spacers arriving at my destination today.

Wheels look amazing though, almost look photoshopped on the car because they look so much better than the rest of it Needs a wash now for sure.

I wanted something that looks a lot like my original wheels on the car, I know yearone makes some wheels for a few cars but nothing like the wheels I had on this car from the factory.
I also wanted something that would actually show off the new brakes on the car too.

I happened to find the new wheels stumbling around Summit's website and they fit the bill better than anything else I've been able to find. I might try and put the OEM center caps on them too later on.

Not convinced? Here's a side by side:

and an overlay:

Finally installed on the car after being ceramic coated

Drove the car up to Michigan from Nashville yesterday.

Didn't find anything too crazy, the trans does seem to make some noise though when I let the clutch out in neutral though. Not sure what that's all about. If I put the clutch in the noise goes away completely. It also seems to make more noise when I have the A/C running vs off. On the road there's almost no noise at all but it does vibrate a lot when I lug the car - I blame my motor mounts for that though.
Going to work on the front spacers sometime today and maybe cut out a coil from the front springs. The front end is a little too high in my opinion

 

[IDAFC21]

God damn, those look great. Love it

 

[v6buicks]

Hell yeah! You should make some sweet Pontiac center caps to really complete the look! They look awesome as-is though.

 

[v6buicks]

I now pronounce the ICM and the coil power signals divorced!

RTV is curing right now

Also added a 1 pin harness for the ICM and the car so I can actually remove it easily if I want to. I even ran a fresh 18awg power wire for the coils separate from the ICM so maybe I can get a bit more juice out of it if it's not already limited by the ICM.

Should actually work better this time this way

I super appreciate these pictures because I found my spare ICM yesterday. I'm going to be modifying it in the same manner when I find some free time at work.

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

I guess you guys could just as easily use that to kill power to just the coils while the ICM and driver logic circuits continue to work.

V6 DIS to LSx coil system



IC icebox on the right, type 101 heat exchanger and trans cooler on left.

Buick Ignition Interface

Found it

 

[bs009]

Car survived Power Tour this year again!

It got a ton of attention this year due to some strategic parking at some venues and also because it was next to this compound charged lesabre in some of these pictures. That thing ran amazing the whole trip btw
Apparently nobody knows what a grand national motor looks like btw. The number of people who looked at this under the hood and said "oh it's a grand national engine" was unbelievable. I'm thinking of getting a different intake and running coil on plug just so the engine looks a little more modern

some things went really well, but there's still so much room for improvement on this thing.
Engine runs really good, but has some exhaust ticking that I can't track down. After blowing the head gasket earlier this year I'm kind of suspecting it's the other head gasket that could be blowing out too. I'm thinking that this block and heads might not be exactly square considering the mileage on them so I'm debating what I want to do about that. I am constantly developing exhaust leaks and that's pretty frustrating.
Engine also appears to be leaking from the rear main seal pretty bad. Entire underbody of the car is coated in oil right now after this trip. Funny thing is though is that it's a brand new seal so I'm not sure what the issue there is. It's possible I used a Fel-pro seal instead of an acdelco though.

I decided to dyno the car on power tour this year too, I had been keeping the boost around 15 psi the whole trip and had planned to turn it up on the dyno. Well that didn't work out so well and I was fighting that for the next few days. Eventually I did get it to start producing 20 psi but it was pretty inconsistent.



Clearly my cam timing trick did not pan out at all. It's peaking at 4250 rpm for hp and that's likely a direct result of me retarding the cam timing to try and get more on the top end. ignition timing and AFRs all looked good.
350 whp at 15 psi is actually slightly better than I would have expected for a stock motor and I should be happy with that, but the peak should be at around 5200 rpm so I'm sure there's more left in here if I put the cam timing back to stock. In theory this means I'm making ~400whp at 20 psi which is pretty much what I had hoped for. (350hp at 2 bar => 400hp at 2.333 bar). This engine should be more efficient than stock after all I've done to it and I think this almost confirms that.
I kinda want to go test it again with the stock cam timing, but if I'm going through all that trouble again I'm probably just going to put a new cam in it.

The clutch has been a huge PITA all of the trip. I'm sure the 2.41:1 rear gear ratio isn't helping but this clutch is way worse off than I thought it was. I'm also seeing some sort of rattle going around by the HTOB when the clutch is let out. I'm hoping it's just an issue with the clutch but I'm going to take a look at the bellhousing measurements again to make sure everything looks good there.
The trans works great otherwise and the no lift shifting from the WOT box is pretty nuts lol

Decided to pull the clutch out to take a look at what's causing all of the vibration and noise though. For sure the clutch is annihilated after under 3,000 miles on it

So I guess I'm replacing that sooner than I thought I would be. Currently looking at either the stage 5 clutch or will try and see about getting a twin disc clutch. I emailed a few more people about that. McLeod already emailed me back and told me to pound sand though so hopes are pretty low about getting something better than another spec clutch unless I weld a LS1 flywheel to a 3800 flywheel or something.
For sure the car isn't going to be driving again until my new rear end is installed so I can prolong the life of whatever clutch I get.

If I had a shop right now the whole car would be coming back apart so I can redo all of my exhaust, the engine, and some other things that are driving me a little crazy.

 

[v6buicks]

Clutch Masters supposedly makes a decent single disk for "1996-2002 3.8 Z28s" lol I trust it's for a 3800 since they at least got the dimensions advertised correctly.

Performance Clutch and Flywheel Kits | Clutch Masters

Since 1978, we've been manufacturing performance clutch and flywheel kits for drivers. Find an aftermarket clutch kit for your high-performance vehicle here.

clutchmasters.com

What are you using for exhaust gaskets? As nice as the MLS manifold gaskets are, they never seemed to put up with my turbo shenanigans. I tried using copper spray and higher torque, but my bolts usually came loose within a few weeks of driving. I replaced the gaskets with the crappy graphite ones, upped the manifold bolt torque by a few lb/ft, and have had no leaks since. I suspect that they just form to the crappy surface better.

 

[v6buicks]

There's a dude in your dyno video wearing black shorts and white T. He was annoying the fuck out of me with his stories about hitting the limiter in his brand new Tahoe. He says that he's going to the dealer soon to "get that governor shit removed". He was also impressed by the LeSabre but not the Prix because a Grand National should be making more power than that.

I CAN'T

Hearing you say that makes me not as inclined to do a Regal swap now. The amount of misinformation around Buicks in general is alarming, but the GN gets all the google historians flocking. It's so bad that I don't bring the GN to shows anymore.

 

[bs009]

Sounds like that guy needs to tell that to all of the Grand Nationals I've gapped with this thing that they should be making way more power
It's like the people on the internet who think every Supra makes 1,000 hp and don't realize how little power it made from the factory or how much work it took to get it there.

I think next year I need to try and get next to a grand national at one of these so people can realize how different this engine is or just make it look a lot newer with the LS coils and a different intake like I've been thinking about. I might try and get a Holden intake for this thing so nobody knows what they're looking at anymore. Waiting to hear back from a friend down under about that.

I'm currently using these felpro gaskets right now. I'm considering running without any gaskets at all right now though like the early 3800's did.

 

[v6buicks]

Sounds like that guy needs to tell that to all of the Grand Nationals I've gapped with this thing that they should be making way more power
It's like the people on the internet who think every Supra makes 1,000 hp and don't realize how little power it made from the factory or how much work it took to get it there.

I think next year I need to try and get next to a grand national at one of these so people can realize how different this engine is or just make it look a lot newer with the LS coils and a different intake like I've been thinking about. I might try and get a Holden intake for this thing so nobody knows what they're looking at anymore. Waiting to hear back from a friend down under about that.

I'm currently using these felpro gaskets right now. I'm considering running without any gaskets at all right now though like the early 3800's did.

lol you could park next to mine which essentially looks bone stock and you'll still have mouth breathers saying it's the same thing. You could buy one of my flipped FWD intakes too if you're feeling really ambitious. Tell them it's one of those rare LS V6s.

 

[bs009]

That engine bay looks so sick! ?
Depending on what's involved in switching over I'm pretty interested in doing that. Looks like I would have to reimagine my A/C and alternator bracket though. I've also thought about just making my own high rise style intake too but I need to learn to weld aluminum before I can get into something like that.

I've been debating removing my AC to help clean up the looks of the engine bay and give me room for a second turbo. I hate how cluttered mine looks right now but I don't really want to part with the A/C. I really want to run twins though so I can get rid of the crossover and just run an x-pipe instead to keep my glorious equal length exhaust note.

 

[v6buicks]

That engine bay looks so sick! ?
Depending on what's involved in switching over I'm pretty interested in doing that. Looks like I would have to reimagine my A/C and alternator bracket though. I've also thought about just making my own high rise style intake too but I need to learn to weld aluminum before I can get into something like that.

I've been debating removing my AC to help clean up the looks of the engine bay and give me room for a second turbo. I hate how cluttered mine looks right now but I don't really want to part with the A/C. I really want to run twins though so I can get rid of the crossover and just run an x-pipe instead to keep my glorious equal length exhaust note.

I have two of them, but the flip is probably the easy part. The accessory situation is tough because the alternator has to go somewhere else. I have the custom balancer and headers to run the GN accessories, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to give that up yet.

 

[bs009]

If I did it I would continue to use my current accessories and just figure out somewhere else to put them. That's going to be a big project though that I don't want to tackle in the garage space I have right now.

Heard back from Monster clutches today and they're willing to work with me, but it's going to be pricey unless I'm willing to buy like 5 or more of them. Quote for one is going to be around $2,500 for a multi-disc clutch, I'm probably just going to bite the bullet for a proper clutch.
I think I'd rather go with Monster over Spec right now even if it's a lot more money. I can't believe how short the life was on my stage 3+ and have just heard so many bad things about them.

 

[v6buicks]

If I did it I would continue to use my current accessories and just figure out somewhere else to put them. That's going to be a big project though that I don't want to tackle in the garage space I have right now.

Heard back from Monster clutches today and they're willing to work with me, but it's going to be pricey unless I'm willing to buy like 5 or more of them. Quote for one is going to be around $2,500 for a multi-disc clutch, I'm probably just going to bite the bullet for a proper clutch.
I think I'd rather go with Monster over Spec right now even if it's a lot more money. I can't believe how short the life was on my stage 3+ and have just heard so many bad things about them.

Is that $2500 if you buy just one or is that the group buy price?

 

[bs009]

Is that $2500 if you buy just one or is that the group buy price?

They didn't mention a group buy price, but I'd imagine it'd be closer to $2,000 per clutch setup by my guess but I'm not sure. I'll email and ask.
I told them I wanted something capable of holding 1,000 ft-lbs and it looks like something like that in their store for a LS1 Camaro would be in the $1,500 - $2,000 range

 

[v6buicks]

Damn. $2000 is still pretty friggen steep. Whenever my Spec Stage 4 kicks the bucket I'll probably call Clutch Masters and see what they recommend since they don't post torque ratings. If none of them can hold at least 600 lb-ft I'm not sure what I'll be doing. I'm at the point where a cheap clutch, cast aluminum bell, and no scatter shield is probably getting a bit sketchy. I need all the insurance I can get. My hands have been on too many bolts!

 

[bs009]

Looks like my bellhousing was within spec so that's comforting. Either that noise in neutral I was hearing is something wrong with the clutch or the transmission then-which seems probable because of what its box looked like when it arrived

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

If I recall concentric slave cylinder assemblies always keep the bearing pressed against the fingers via the anti slack spring...is there a chance you don't have it adjusted far enough to keep the bearing from rattling against the fingers at idle in neutral?

Also the factory series II MLS exhaust manifold gaskets are the bee's knees. The only thing is you have to grind away the little spot welds so you can separate them and clean the grit that accumulates between the layers out.

 

[bs009]

I definitely put a lot of effort into making sure my distances between the compressed throwout bearing and the clutch fingers were within the spec holley called for in their shim kits for the T56.
I went under the car and grabbed some 240fps video footage of what was going on and slowed it down. You can watch as I let the clutch out and the vibration starts, it almost looks like it's something on the pressure plate or flywheel causing the throwout bearing to shake but I'm not sure


I might actually have a set of those MLS gaskets somewhere still, I'll try those this time then instead. Do people use copper rtv on them too or just assemble them clean and dry?

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

Clean and dry.

I don't often see diaphragm spring fingers all at the exact same elevation.

Did you indicate From the Block to the clutch friction surface?
You might as well make absolutely sure that the flywheel is perpendicular to the crankshaft. It's not likely but it is possible that a piece of grit was under the flywheel to crank flange when the flywheel was ground.

Before you pull it apart maybe stick the indicator on the fingers and see if it's got an elevation change that would cause it to oscillate the bearing like that.

 

[bs009]

okay cool, yeah I'm hoping that that's all it is. This flywheel and clutch are getting tossed now but I'll make sure the next one doesn't have issues like that. Actually will probably do just that whilie it's still on there and see how far out the flywheel itself is.
I wouldn't be surprised if something got lodged in the fingers and prevented them from letting off evenly too.

I sent an OEM replacement flywheel and clutch to Monster yesterday for testing. Hoping to hear some more solid numbers around timing and cost in the next week or so. Really hoping I can get a triple disc in here soon, but if not I'll probably just grab a stage 5 temporarily because I'm planning on turning up the boost a lot more to see what this stock cam can really do with a turbo.

 

[bs009]

Been a while since I've touched the car, decided to take a break for a little bit while I've got a lot of changes happening at work and while I hunt for land around here. Hoping to build a new house here at some point but finding land around Nashville has been a shit show.

Clutch update
I placed the order for my new clutch from Monster a couple weeks ago so it's being worked on now. They said that with the space I have in the bellhousing we wouldn't be able to fit a triple in there so the LS flywheel must sit a lot closer to the engine than the 3800 does or something. We settled on an 700hp S twin disc for now though. Cost was about $1600 for it and I'm thinking it'll be arriving in the next few weeks if they didn't run into any issues.
Once I go twin turbo and finally get a cam in this car I'll switch over to the SC or R twin clutch which they rate for 1,000 hp ish between them. So monster should be able to make a clutch for the 3800's now
a triple is possible with a trans spacer, but then I'd need to find/make an extended pilot bushing and find some extended dowel pins in addition to the spacer.

Back to the car now:
I've had some parts piling up for a while though so I figured it's time to get back at it. I finally have all of the pieces for the new rear end I think now. First order of business though is the new ebay turbo for this thing!
I'm suspecting that the HX35 I've had on here has been choking out the engine at high rpms and high boost levels. It only has a T3 exhaust housing on it and I'm thinking it wasn't able to take that much volume being thrown through it resulting in my power peak happening so low.

I wanted something that would still spool pretty quickly and could make about 600hp and I think this might fit the bill:

It's a weird GT35/GT45 hybrid deal. It's labeled as a GT45 but isn't big enough to be one, but is larger than a GT35.
62/82mm compressor wheel and a 73.6/64.5mm turbine wheel
It has a T4 exhaust housing with a 3.5" exhaust outlet v-band so it should be able to flow more out the back of it than the T3 holset.
It should also still spool pretty quickly. The turbine wheel isn't a lot larger than the old one and the T4 housing is a twin scroll housing too. It also has a billet compressor wheel so that should be helpful too.

What's interesting is that both are about the same size physically though. That Holset is a huge turbo for the size of its wheels I guess.

Now my struggle is figure out how to fit a 3.5" exhaust pipe in the small space the old 3" sat in.
This is how I had the old 3" pipe routed and I really hated working around it. I really made a mistake putting the turbo where I did and the exhaust where I did when I built it.

I also wanted to avoid pie cuts in case that's causing an issue too. So now I have this hot mess that I might actually burn in

I have the tightest 3.5" mandrel bends I could find and they still weren't tight enough to get the exhaust routed over to where the downpipe sits. Rotating it up lets me get the pipe over in the spot it needs to be but man does it look stupid.
Not sure that I'll actually run it, but I'm leaning towards yes right now just because I want to get this thing done with minimal modification to this version of the exhaust before I cut it all up and start over fresh.
The wastegates are definitely getting moved too because I've had so many issues with boost control in this thing. I've learned a lot since I put this together 5 years ago. Crazy how time flies

 

[GTPpower]

I think that exhaust looks sweet.