The last DOWNPIPE you'll ever own


rob

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I see alot of downpipe Q&A. I spoke to a few of you guys about this phantom. Hey, thats what im going to call it. THE PHANTOM DOWNPIPE. Its going to be a 3"ID bolt in stock or TOG replacement pipe. NO WELDING NO HASSLES. :lol:

I may have a couple versions of it. Possibly one with a 3" performance cat(expensive) and an outlet in 3 sizes 3", 2.5", and 2.25" to fit any cat back that I'll custom fabricate.

You'll pretty much be able to custom order your options. Cat-no(if applicable) cat and outlet size.

But the idea im working with now will have a DUMMY CAT to avoid possible EPA encounters, u-bend removal and work with Caspers 02 simulater.

The most important part of this D.P. is the PHANTOM part. Im fabricating a dump in it. Meaning with the flip of a switch(q-tech) or poor mans method 3 wing nuts you'll have OPEN HEADERS-garanteed to scare the asshole right out of the cat (kitty).

The first 2 prototypes that will be tested on ILGPC members cars: one supercharged and one natually asterated. If everthing goes righ testing will begin in April an bereleased soon after. I havent chose A coating yet but im leaning towards the TOG type nickel,ceramic or possibly powder coating(if applicible)

Im expecting at least 3 tenths on a supercharged car. You'll be able to run smaller pulleys due to less backpressure and boost stacking. Combine with TOG's and look out.

I'll post more on the PHANTOM as we go. Questions?? Comments welcom!!!
 

Fish

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Thats pretty cool. Too bad I already have a D/P, or I would raise my hand and help you out with testing.
 

BlkJak

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Too bad I don't have headers!! :huh: I already have the 3" exhaust and cat....... ^_^ Oh well, let us know how it goes!
 

gtphale

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so will you be using the tog flex pipe still? or a differant flex pipe. Also I would be interested in the phantom cat option. I also think that it might be illegal for you to sell something like this. Might want to look into it first.
 

alexgtp

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MARK IT FOR off road use ONLY.. Will give him the exepmtion he needs to sell this ITEM.
 

EmersonHart13

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Alex is right, plus all you have to say is it is a resonator that looks like cat, no foul there!

John :p
 

J.E.T.

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I'd be more than happy to test whatever version you have available now. I'm just about to have a shop install a Carsound to replace my failed R/T so now would be a perfect time to help you test. Although - whats there to test? Fitment? Sound? Quality?

J.E.T.
'97 Red GTP
 

DaytonaPaceCar

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MARK IT FOR off road use ONLY.. Will give him the exepmtion he needs to sell this ITEM.
This is 100% NOT TRUE. This was once true for OBD-I but not OBD-II standards. EPA can and will go after any items that defeat, disable, or render inoperative ANY emissions control system. There is no such thing as "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY" according to the EPA for OBD-II. I am sure of this. ;)
 

xttc2000

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3 tenths seems a bit too optimistic.
cant wait to see the product tho.
 
I

imported_Ron Vogel

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My 3" DP gave me about a tenth, but it went on with the 3.25. It'll prolly give you 3 tenths on a 2.8" pulley car.
 
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rob

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Very good questions.

First off I disscussed this with a couple internet venders that already sell cat deleted pipes. There are illegal to PRODUCE unless registered as an "OFF ROAD ONLY" equipment. DAYTONAPACECAR has a very good point. There are however alot of is and outs these the law.

The wording has changed in the last couple years: OFF ROAD USE ONLY and FOR USE ON A PUBLIC HYWY ect. This is a very good topic for all of us. Because if you really want too pick fly shit out of pepper-every mod you are doing can be conscued as an EPA voilation. Are we all ready to revauate our position on our modifications? I dont know but im going to contact the EPA, get some info,and post another topic on this good subject.

You can sell and own these products. RANDOM tech has been making these for years. They still post off road use as well as other venders products.(look at nitrous) So exemptions do exist-I dont have the terminoligy yet. The worst possible thing that may happen to YOU is getting your car retested.

As far is the dump is concerned. Thats designed for track use mostly. Its going to be fairly loud so im not sure how much street use your going to get out of it yet.
But if your using it on the street im not responsible for your tickets. So use it with discression. A Q-tech would be advisable. Im releasing them with a standard cover with 3 wing nuts.

Back to emmisions. Your only going to fail if you dont use a 02 simulater. The pipe will have a open or dummy cat. HOWEVER THIS DESIGN MAY CHANGE becuase there really no performance gains to justify removing it. Granted its not clogged.

JUST COSTS. 3" cats are costly. But not out of the question. Not for the enviroment. So you can see where this is going. Also, incoorperating the cat will aviod using a $54 simulater. If I can find a 3" performance cat for around that its a wash and I'll make them with cats.


Im still working on the cat topic and im slowly beeing swayed into just installing one. Their not that restictive and I wont have to go through all the red tape.

Another question is the use of the TOG flex pipe or coupler. Yes I would like to use it but its expensive. Im currently looking into that and a couple other solutions.

Testing will mostly be performance. Im expecting 2 tenths closed compaired to the stocker. And up to 3 to possibly 4 tenths on heavily boosted cars and a heavily modded car. If I dont see a marked improved (which I know I will) the PHANTOM is going to dissapear faster than it appeared. If you have any particular concerns post a reply or leave me a messege.

Im going to dyno a couple combos with different pulley sizes watching KR. I'll also flow it and compare it to the stocker. The naturally asperated engines may not see as much but will see a marked improvement. Especially in the upper RPM range.

This is old technoligy. They used to install them from the factory without a warrenty on the old Mopar wedge motors in the 60's for track use only. However, supercharging will allways increase you combinations performance.

Hope I answered your questions-now is the time to express your comments and concerns. I said I was releasing these to ILGPC members FIRST.

Here is another perk. I value you suggestions and im tracking your resposes. Any ILGPC member that posts a LEGITIMATE suggestion relating to this POST will recieve up to 30% off the pipe. Im using some of your responses to fuel this project-guys and gals like you are going to be using them. Im sure your going to see advantaves,possibly over the pipes you have now. So why not.

KEEP THEM COMMING
 

DaytonaPaceCar

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First off I disscussed this with a couple internet venders that already sell cat deleted pipes. There are illegal to PRODUCE unless registered as an "OFF ROAD ONLY" equipment. DAYTONAPACECAR has a very good point. There are however alot of is and outs these the law.
Does not make ANY difference whatsoever. For OBD-II, there are no "outs" to the off-road portion of a product. ODB-II law covers all light-duty passenger car and trucks.

I dont know but im going to contact the EPA, get some info,and post another topic on this good subject.
I have LOTS of information on this... Give me a call and we can discuss it. ;)

You can sell and own these products. RANDOM tech has been making these for years. They still post off road use as well as other venders products.(look at nitrous) So exemptions do exist-I dont have the terminoligy yet. The worst possible thing that may happen to YOU is getting your car retested.
They won't be for long. A lot has gone down in the last 6 months that is "behind the scenes". I will explain later. Believe me, that is by far NOT the worst that can happen :p

JUST COSTS. 3" cats are costly. But not out of the question. Not for the enviroment. So you can see where this is going. Also, incoorperating the cat will aviod using a $54 simulater. If I can find a 3" performance cat for around that its a wash and I'll make them with cats.
$54 ?? Gimme a call ;)

EDIT (x2 for spelling): I am not trying to discourage in any way shape or form... . I believe I can help you over some some obstacles while you produce this and stay out of trouble. Like I siad, give me a call when you have some free time.
 

beyerch

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Originally posted by DaytonaPaceCar@Jan 27 2004, 09:39 AM
control system.  There is no such thing as "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY" according to the EPA for OBD-II.  I am sure of this.  ;)
This is incorrect.

There IS a legitamate "off-road" use clause; however, and this is a BIG however, you need to prove to the EPA that it is for off-road use. You also need to show them HOW you prevent people from using it for anything but "off-road", etc.

For instance, if you are selling "off-road" only you need to take measures to ensure that your customers are not using it in their "on-road" applications; otherwise, you will have problems with the EPA.

This information can be found on their website and I do have a link somewhere.
 

gtphale

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As Charles and Justin have said off road will not make it legal for you to sell. I hope this works out and you see the gains that you want out of it cause I'll be needing a new dp soon. lol
 

DaytonaPaceCar

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This is incorrect.

There IS a legitamate "off-road" use clause; however, and this is a BIG however, you need to prove to the EPA that it is for off-road use. You also need to show them HOW you prevent people from using it for anything but "off-road", etc.

For instance, if you are selling "off-road" only you need to take measures to ensure that your customers are not using it in their "on-road" applications; otherwise, you will have problems with the EPA.

This information can be found on their website and I do have a link somewhere.
Actually, that is partly correct. EPA has REMOVED, begining in 1996 and more specifically changed in 1999, the disclaimer for "OFF-ROAD USE ONLY". That no longer exists. Meaning that manufacturers and distributors can no longer make the claim for OFF ROAD USE ONLY as that claim is not a legal definition according to the EPA (as I saod before, it WAS, it just ISN'T now).

They did, however, retain that the distributor or manufacturer must obtain certifiable proof that the product will only be used for off-road use. As I said before, ANYTHING that defeats, disables, or renders inoperative ANY emission control component is in defiance of the OBD standards set for by the EPA.

I have all the docs here directly FROM the EPA. All current codes and violations, etc etc.

This law applies to any light-duty passenger car and truck with OBD systems in place.

I have been dealing with this on a daily basis and I have in my posession the most current information available.
 
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rob

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THANKS FELLAS Sorry about the spelling/typo's......

Im a little disapointed but still in the early stages of this project. Im not too sure that even with my plans on installing a cat in the pipe it will make it legal for SALE due to the dump and OFF ROAD EXCLUSIONS. I cant prove to EPA how people will use them or on the street. If that even matters due to some recent legislation.

I am going to still see this through-Who knows how many prototypes I'll have laying around? I still think I'm going to see my gains.

Anyway im still pursing this legal delema throughout testing. Im sending a pipe to Justin maybe he will do an independant test on his DAYTONA. Im really hoping for some help in the legal dept. If its still possible I'll release them.

STAY TUNED This off road exemption is definetly going effect this HOBBY of ours!
Whats next? EPA going to make us where cats out our ass becuase corp. fat cats have LOBBYED up all are air?

IF SO I'LL PROBABLY NEED DUAL CATS
 

beyerch

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Originally posted by DaytonaPaceCar@Jan 27 2004, 04:45 PM
This is incorrect.

There IS a legitamate "off-road" use clause; however, and this is a BIG however, you need to prove to the EPA that it is for off-road use. You also need to show them HOW you prevent people from using it for anything but "off-road", etc.

For instance, if you are selling "off-road" only you need to take measures to ensure that your customers are not using it in their "on-road" applications; otherwise, you will have problems with the EPA.

This information can be found on their website and I do have a link somewhere.
Actually, that is partly correct. EPA has REMOVED, begining in 1996 and more specifically changed in 1999, the disclaimer for "OFF-ROAD USE ONLY". That no longer exists. Meaning that manufacturers and distributors can no longer make the claim for OFF ROAD USE ONLY as that claim is not a legal definition according to the EPA (as I saod before, it WAS, it just ISN'T now).

They did, however, retain that the distributor or manufacturer must obtain certifiable proof that the product will only be used for off-road use. As I said before, ANYTHING that defeats, disables, or renders inoperative ANY emission control component is in defiance of the OBD standards set for by the EPA.

I have all the docs here directly FROM the EPA. All current codes and violations, etc etc.

This law applies to any light-duty passenger car and truck with OBD systems in place.

I have been dealing with this on a daily basis and I have in my posession the most current information available.
if you really want to, you have the equipment tested and certified, but that can get pricey.

On the other hand, if you choose not to have the equipment tested and certified, and someone gets busted with something that COULD affect the emissions quality of the vehicle it comes down to what their "rep" decides. Chances are you, the "modder" will get screwed. :(

When we get our new dyno setup done, etc, we may very well end up certifying our units for 2.0. We've informally done the analysis and they pass, but informally testing doesn't get the EPA off of your back. (it could help, but until they sign off, you are in potential trouble)
 
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rob

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Thank you for the information. Its clear that as a MANUFACTURER I woud clearly have alot to LOOSE. Who would want to take a hit if they could tell the EPA where it came from. Im not sure installing a cat would make the Phantom legal due Justins (sorry Justin, EPA dictatorship) Its CLEARLY BYPASSING the cat and resinater but will it make it inoperative? Im not removig the cat. Need to test.

The OBD definition is clear. However, using the 02 simulater wont set a SES and the cat is still operationally in place. What would cause the EPA to look. Unless someone goes to get tested with the cap off.

Im trying to argue that the pipe with a cat is not a violation. Incorectly used is the violation. (POP THE CAP). I see your point Justin. According to the law EPA it doesnt matter. Seems unfair to hold the manufacterer responsable for how there products are used. Thats definetly an argument there. Im being hasty here: If I start cutting holes in the stock exhaust is the EPA going after GM.

What if the description of the dump was changed to a test port. Include a plate with a tapped hole for a 02 to test with a realtime A/F meter. Doesnt matter right.

The OBD definition is clear. Im just trying to create and arguement. I guess im arguing liability. THANKS FOR ALL THE IMPUT.
 

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