The GM Mount is even smaller if I work all but I didn't want a smaller Mount I wanted a bigger wider interlock to keep it from being able to twist
3800 Project: what is it doing? Cavalier L67 swap runs!
- Thread starter Mattstrike
- Start date
them Tq links better be going from the engine to the firewall near the a pillars/door hing posts.....those are the only somewhat substantial area's you have....you might as well make the K frame the lower Tq mount with the interlocked utrethane ES trans mounts as lower engine/trans mounts....then you only need upper Tq links to some sort of strut/firewall support bar
I finally got the new subframe and initial mounts tacked into place. Had some fun fixing the darn MIG again and promptly ran out of wire - the 12.5lb spools just aren't big enough.
series 3 trans mount
Modified the Series 3 bracket to fit the much smaller trans mount instead of the normal engine mount. Size is a huge issue with this car, and the normal W-body engine mount hung way too low.
1 of 4 total dogbone mounts mocked up:
Subframe tied into the lower radiator mount:
Next step is to pull the subframe and get some more cutting and welding done. The added portion of the subframe is made from 11gauge 1.5" x 2" rectangle tube, it's just roughed in right now but it will be cleaned up so it's not so blocky looking. Once that's done, I'll do a final test fit, then pull the entire drivetrain out with it to setup the rest of the motor mounts, and do some clearance work on the body at the forward supercharger belt pulley.
series 3 trans mount
Modified the Series 3 bracket to fit the much smaller trans mount instead of the normal engine mount. Size is a huge issue with this car, and the normal W-body engine mount hung way too low.
1 of 4 total dogbone mounts mocked up:
Subframe tied into the lower radiator mount:
Next step is to pull the subframe and get some more cutting and welding done. The added portion of the subframe is made from 11gauge 1.5" x 2" rectangle tube, it's just roughed in right now but it will be cleaned up so it's not so blocky looking. Once that's done, I'll do a final test fit, then pull the entire drivetrain out with it to setup the rest of the motor mounts, and do some clearance work on the body at the forward supercharger belt pulley.
Found one of those little repairs that make you wonder why:
But the subframe is almost done!
And it holds a 3800 all by itself now!
Working on the rest of the engine mounts now.
But the subframe is almost done!
And it holds a 3800 all by itself now!
Working on the rest of the engine mounts now.
As usual, progress continues despite the lack of photography. Had to take another mid-project cleanup (after acquiring a new storage cabinet and a bunch of random stuff from my dad's old garage). But finally finished tacking in the rear mounts:
More work to do there, have to grab some bar stock while I'm out this weekend. In the meantime, the real fun begins:
I love me some 3800 sludge:
Ended up pulling the heads to check for cracks (none!) and find out how bad this rust had progressed on the front side of the motor:
That was getting close to head gasket leak territory. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Took a bit of elbow grease to clean it up:
Rather than risk some kind of filler or epoxy separating due to heat cycles I filled the voids with copper RTV. Rust was mechanically removed and the areas soaked in evaporust then cleaned with ZEP de-greaser (prevents the metal from flash rusting). I got to drive the donor car, so I know the motor was running good, so the main goal is to stop and prevent this rust spot from expanding.
Also, more random fixes?
Heads cleaned up and back on. Still waiting on a timing set and intake gaskets to get this buttoned back up.
Bottom end, pistons/rings, none of that is getting touched as is usual, other than to coat everything in oil so it doesn't flash rust from being cleaned up. This motor was heavily sludged up for a 3800, so I suspect oil changes were not as regular of a maintenance item as I would have liked. Pulling certain bolts during disassembly (some of you know the smell) resulted in that nasty, cooked as fuck oil smell. There was enough of that to overpower the SC oil smell.. Pistons and valves had heavy carbon deposits thicker than my fingernails. Not sure what the heck was going on with this motor to cause that, based on the zip tied tubing I found it had a major un-metered air leak and likely misfiring on top of an EGR issue? Not sure why anybody would have pulled that valve cover and covered it in garbage to re-seal it. I'm going to guess whatever it was, once they fixed it they unloaded the car before anything else could go wrong. I don't know which was worse, this motor, or the one I cleaned up for the Montana.
More work to do there, have to grab some bar stock while I'm out this weekend. In the meantime, the real fun begins:
I love me some 3800 sludge:
Ended up pulling the heads to check for cracks (none!) and find out how bad this rust had progressed on the front side of the motor:
That was getting close to head gasket leak territory. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Took a bit of elbow grease to clean it up:
Rather than risk some kind of filler or epoxy separating due to heat cycles I filled the voids with copper RTV. Rust was mechanically removed and the areas soaked in evaporust then cleaned with ZEP de-greaser (prevents the metal from flash rusting). I got to drive the donor car, so I know the motor was running good, so the main goal is to stop and prevent this rust spot from expanding.
Also, more random fixes?
Heads cleaned up and back on. Still waiting on a timing set and intake gaskets to get this buttoned back up.
Bottom end, pistons/rings, none of that is getting touched as is usual, other than to coat everything in oil so it doesn't flash rust from being cleaned up. This motor was heavily sludged up for a 3800, so I suspect oil changes were not as regular of a maintenance item as I would have liked. Pulling certain bolts during disassembly (some of you know the smell) resulted in that nasty, cooked as fuck oil smell. There was enough of that to overpower the SC oil smell.. Pistons and valves had heavy carbon deposits thicker than my fingernails. Not sure what the heck was going on with this motor to cause that, based on the zip tied tubing I found it had a major un-metered air leak and likely misfiring on top of an EGR issue? Not sure why anybody would have pulled that valve cover and covered it in garbage to re-seal it. I'm going to guess whatever it was, once they fixed it they unloaded the car before anything else could go wrong. I don't know which was worse, this motor, or the one I cleaned up for the Montana.
All I'm going to say tonight is RockAuto really dropped the ball on shipping. I would have had the motor done tonight, except...
$600 parts order (trans and motor) - the only thing they elected to ship USPS are the intake manifold gaskets... 1 week later, still stuck in Lagrange Illinois, I have everything else and now I'm waiting on them...
That's ok, I really needed the extra day to not work on this project and play with the Duramax!
$600 parts order (trans and motor) - the only thing they elected to ship USPS are the intake manifold gaskets... 1 week later, still stuck in Lagrange Illinois, I have everything else and now I'm waiting on them...
That's ok, I really needed the extra day to not work on this project and play with the Duramax!
I had an issue with them last week. Ordered a part Thursday morning, specifically paid the additional $20 for FedEx next day late delivery (meaning Friday PM) so that I would have it for Saturday to install.
Guess what doesn't arrive until Monday??? Anyway, contacted customer service and they refunded me the $18.
Guess what doesn't arrive until Monday??? Anyway, contacted customer service and they refunded me the $18.
Went with the XP cam and going to upgrade to the blue LS springs and LS7 lifters. Grabbed a few other goodies that I'll need to rebuild the supercharger, since it has to be completely disassembled for powder coating. Anyhow, progress on the motor is stalled while we wait for parts:
That's okay though, I have a ton of work to do yet! So I tore into the trans.
Got to stay organized!
Findings from the trans: Lot's of brown and burnt fluid and none of the bands or clutch packs were burnt, though there was a fair bit of wear on the 2nd and 3rd clutch steels (no leopard spotting). Also, all the rubber seals are very stiff and the wave plate in the input clutch was shattered. Also, did you know that a FULL rebuild kit for a 4t65 no longer includes the bonded pistons? Also, you know how you pay extra for the clutch plates? Yeah, the steels aren't included either...
Planning to do the same trans build that I did for the Montana, with a more aggressive shift kit. Have to stop by the local trans shop to see if I can grab a new chain, TCC, some steel plates, etc.
That's okay though, I have a ton of work to do yet! So I tore into the trans.
Got to stay organized!
Findings from the trans: Lot's of brown and burnt fluid and none of the bands or clutch packs were burnt, though there was a fair bit of wear on the 2nd and 3rd clutch steels (no leopard spotting). Also, all the rubber seals are very stiff and the wave plate in the input clutch was shattered. Also, did you know that a FULL rebuild kit for a 4t65 no longer includes the bonded pistons? Also, you know how you pay extra for the clutch plates? Yeah, the steels aren't included either...
Planning to do the same trans build that I did for the Montana, with a more aggressive shift kit. Have to stop by the local trans shop to see if I can grab a new chain, TCC, some steel plates, etc.
Ok, tonight's update has been delayed by this barrel of fuck nuts:
looks like the #2 cam bearing. This was a running engine with good oil pressure. It pulled right out, clealry mashed up and wore grooves into the cam. There was no metal in the oil at all, just how the hell does this happen? Mis-build from the factory?
Now I have to rip all the bearing caps off and make sure this didn't cause other problems. Damn 3800's and their running despite major problems...
looks like the #2 cam bearing. This was a running engine with good oil pressure. It pulled right out, clealry mashed up and wore grooves into the cam. There was no metal in the oil at all, just how the hell does this happen? Mis-build from the factory?
Now I have to rip all the bearing caps off and make sure this didn't cause other problems. Damn 3800's and their running despite major problems...
Best I can tell is that this was a mis-build from the factory. The #2 cam bearing was only half-way installed. The engine was making good oil pressure, no metal in the oil, not down on power, no indications that anything was wrong until I removed the camshaft to put a new cam in.
So it's time to make a tool!
In order to get to the #2 bearing, the #1 bearing has to be removed.
Now, time to make another tool!
As far as I can tell, these bearings are pressed in from both ends, 2 at a time. The #2 bearing slides past the #1 bearing hole (same for the #3 and #4). I didn't figure that out until after I started making the tool. The goal of this tool is to be able to remove and re-install cam bearings without touching the crank or rods. Also, I was limited by stuff I had on hand tonight. The dumb washer on the end is supposed to center the tool, I cut a cam journal off an old cam to hold the bearing, a spare 36mm socket is nearly a perfect fit to the OD of the #2 bearing, then the aluminum piece on the end is fit to the #1 bearing. It centers the end of the tool so it presses in the #2 bearing straight. I tested it out, and unfortunately the centering I cut into the socket wasn't aggressive enough to keep it aligned to the journal it pushes on, it slipped while pressing so the bearing didn't go in straight. This is partially because I didn't have the right bolt on hand either... Another thing I tried that plagued me in the past was getting the bearing to crush to the right size without a way to shave it after the fact. I tried using a single layer of aluminum tape over the bearing journal to prevent the bearing from crushing too far - looks like that part worked at least.
The plan is to revise this tool, but I need some real aluminum round stock and appropriate length bolts first. The force it takes to press the bearings in and out might be low enough to use a threaded aluminum tool, not sure if I'll design it that way at this point though. I plan to make a spreader bar that will bolt up to the heads that adapts to my gear puller, this tool will fit the gear puller tool and be able to press in each bearing depending on how it's set up. At the moment, it looks like I can pull this off without shaving new bearings or pulling the bottom end on a block.
So it's time to make a tool!
In order to get to the #2 bearing, the #1 bearing has to be removed.
Now, time to make another tool!
As far as I can tell, these bearings are pressed in from both ends, 2 at a time. The #2 bearing slides past the #1 bearing hole (same for the #3 and #4). I didn't figure that out until after I started making the tool. The goal of this tool is to be able to remove and re-install cam bearings without touching the crank or rods. Also, I was limited by stuff I had on hand tonight. The dumb washer on the end is supposed to center the tool, I cut a cam journal off an old cam to hold the bearing, a spare 36mm socket is nearly a perfect fit to the OD of the #2 bearing, then the aluminum piece on the end is fit to the #1 bearing. It centers the end of the tool so it presses in the #2 bearing straight. I tested it out, and unfortunately the centering I cut into the socket wasn't aggressive enough to keep it aligned to the journal it pushes on, it slipped while pressing so the bearing didn't go in straight. This is partially because I didn't have the right bolt on hand either... Another thing I tried that plagued me in the past was getting the bearing to crush to the right size without a way to shave it after the fact. I tried using a single layer of aluminum tape over the bearing journal to prevent the bearing from crushing too far - looks like that part worked at least.
The plan is to revise this tool, but I need some real aluminum round stock and appropriate length bolts first. The force it takes to press the bearings in and out might be low enough to use a threaded aluminum tool, not sure if I'll design it that way at this point though. I plan to make a spreader bar that will bolt up to the heads that adapts to my gear puller, this tool will fit the gear puller tool and be able to press in each bearing depending on how it's set up. At the moment, it looks like I can pull this off without shaving new bearings or pulling the bottom end on a block.
Day two of the cam bearing saga:
Only downside of a 80 year old lathe is it needs some work, and I need better lathe tools. A major problem I have is once I chuck a piece in, I can't take it out as it will never true back to the same center. So when making all of this it took a few tries to get the 2" piece to get as centered as possible, then all of my cuts have to be able to be made without relying on putting the part back in later. Also, fun stuff, since I don't have all the right tools for all the right kinds of operations - so I have to make do. Today it just wasn't cooperating so I don't have a very nice finish on the OD of the parts. Everything is made to fit axially, so that's where I had to focus on getting a clean surface.
Bearing #2 install tool is almost done. What you see from left to right: Pilot, the new bearing fit to a cam journal, the all-important press plate, the spacer, and the #1 alignment dowel to ensure it stays axially aligned. Tonight was focused on making chips and test fitting, I'll get into some more detail tomorrow after I finish the tool for bearing #1. Very hard to see, the press plate has a V-groove that fits the bearing to keep it from slipping off the tool:
Bearing fit into the groove on the press plate:
Test fitting the tool; first picture is the pilot lined up into the #2 bore, and the #1 dowel lined up into the #1 bore.
I was trying to find an appropriately sized O-ring for the pilot, as it sits the pilot has to be removed after the bearing is pressed in. Not sure if I'll be able to get that piece out without removing pistons (the goal for future use). I was hoping to find a rather thick O-ring that could be stretched over a part that is small enough to slide through the bearing, pulling it back out would roll the O-ring down the chamfer where it would shrink down to normal size and fit through the new bearing. I haven't found an O-ring locally, so in order to stay on track that idea is on the back burner.
The tool to install the #1 bearing will be similar to this tool, a cam journal will fit into the newly installed #2 bearing to keep it aligned, a spacer and similar (same?) press plate will push the bearing in. The plan is to make a spreader bar that bolts onto the face of the block that will accept the threaded rod and flange from a gear puller. The gear puller will be used to press the tool and bearing into place.
My next project is going to be rebuilding my lathe. It probably needs a new chuck and some head bearings, but I've never fixed one of them before.
Only downside of a 80 year old lathe is it needs some work, and I need better lathe tools. A major problem I have is once I chuck a piece in, I can't take it out as it will never true back to the same center. So when making all of this it took a few tries to get the 2" piece to get as centered as possible, then all of my cuts have to be able to be made without relying on putting the part back in later. Also, fun stuff, since I don't have all the right tools for all the right kinds of operations - so I have to make do. Today it just wasn't cooperating so I don't have a very nice finish on the OD of the parts. Everything is made to fit axially, so that's where I had to focus on getting a clean surface.
Bearing #2 install tool is almost done. What you see from left to right: Pilot, the new bearing fit to a cam journal, the all-important press plate, the spacer, and the #1 alignment dowel to ensure it stays axially aligned. Tonight was focused on making chips and test fitting, I'll get into some more detail tomorrow after I finish the tool for bearing #1. Very hard to see, the press plate has a V-groove that fits the bearing to keep it from slipping off the tool:
Bearing fit into the groove on the press plate:
Test fitting the tool; first picture is the pilot lined up into the #2 bore, and the #1 dowel lined up into the #1 bore.
I was trying to find an appropriately sized O-ring for the pilot, as it sits the pilot has to be removed after the bearing is pressed in. Not sure if I'll be able to get that piece out without removing pistons (the goal for future use). I was hoping to find a rather thick O-ring that could be stretched over a part that is small enough to slide through the bearing, pulling it back out would roll the O-ring down the chamfer where it would shrink down to normal size and fit through the new bearing. I haven't found an O-ring locally, so in order to stay on track that idea is on the back burner.
The tool to install the #1 bearing will be similar to this tool, a cam journal will fit into the newly installed #2 bearing to keep it aligned, a spacer and similar (same?) press plate will push the bearing in. The plan is to make a spreader bar that bolts onto the face of the block that will accept the threaded rod and flange from a gear puller. The gear puller will be used to press the tool and bearing into place.
My next project is going to be rebuilding my lathe. It probably needs a new chuck and some head bearings, but I've never fixed one of them before.
I feel like I'm a lot more excited about my new tool than you guys are. Look at it. Just look at it! Love my tool!
Cam bearing #2 going in:
#1 going in:
Yay!!!
Here's the new tool. Going to put this one on the top shelf.
So in order to make sure the bearings didn't crush down too small, what I ended up doing was cutting up the camshaft from this motor, since the #2 journal was FUBAR to begin with no reason not to. I cut the #1 and #4 journals off, since they are the widest. The aluminum tape I had measured between 0.001 and 0.0015 with the calipers, so it was too thick to do a single layer on the journal since it would end up with 0.003 clearance if the tape and adhesive doesn't crush at all. But it was really close, so what I did was a half-wrap of the tape on the journal. This seems to have worked perfectly - once the bearing is pressed in it's a tight fit and needed a slide hammer to tap the tool back out. However, the camshaft fits tightly with just a slight amount of drag, you can still turn it with just your fingers. With the drive gear for the balance shaft on it spins freely. No shaving the bearings, just press and go. I used the sealed power 1889M bearings - not sure what they mean by second design but without the tape I couldn't press an old bearing back in without it fitting too tight to the cam.
This is huge for me because I have 2 lower mileage L67 blocks with bad cam bearings that I can revive now!
Cam bearing #2 going in:
#1 going in:
Yay!!!
Here's the new tool. Going to put this one on the top shelf.
So in order to make sure the bearings didn't crush down too small, what I ended up doing was cutting up the camshaft from this motor, since the #2 journal was FUBAR to begin with no reason not to. I cut the #1 and #4 journals off, since they are the widest. The aluminum tape I had measured between 0.001 and 0.0015 with the calipers, so it was too thick to do a single layer on the journal since it would end up with 0.003 clearance if the tape and adhesive doesn't crush at all. But it was really close, so what I did was a half-wrap of the tape on the journal. This seems to have worked perfectly - once the bearing is pressed in it's a tight fit and needed a slide hammer to tap the tool back out. However, the camshaft fits tightly with just a slight amount of drag, you can still turn it with just your fingers. With the drive gear for the balance shaft on it spins freely. No shaving the bearings, just press and go. I used the sealed power 1889M bearings - not sure what they mean by second design but without the tape I couldn't press an old bearing back in without it fitting too tight to the cam.
This is huge for me because I have 2 lower mileage L67 blocks with bad cam bearings that I can revive now!
We found an upgraded sway bar for the front, I think it's a 22mm bar, original is only 18mm.
Got most of the engine/trans re-assembled, doing some last minute clearance checks before mounting this up to the subframe. There are two spots to clearance. The first is on the drivers side, subframe is about a paper's thickness from rubbing the 4t65 side cover. I'll get a better picture of that later. The other one is something that I find annoying. Here's the drivers side tripot for the axle:
And the passenger side:
The support bracket is not quite symmetrical side to side. The drivers side is further back than the passenger side one, by about 1/4", so I'll have to clearance the passenger side to make sure the axle boot doesn't rub.
Likely going to be spending the next few days working on a bunch of those little details that are boring for forums. Cleaning, painting, sand blasting and powder coating, plumbing, etc. I intend to document anything interesting for anybody else that wants to follow this swap like a guide, look forward to some interesting things to come soon!
Got most of the engine/trans re-assembled, doing some last minute clearance checks before mounting this up to the subframe. There are two spots to clearance. The first is on the drivers side, subframe is about a paper's thickness from rubbing the 4t65 side cover. I'll get a better picture of that later. The other one is something that I find annoying. Here's the drivers side tripot for the axle:
And the passenger side:
The support bracket is not quite symmetrical side to side. The drivers side is further back than the passenger side one, by about 1/4", so I'll have to clearance the passenger side to make sure the axle boot doesn't rub.
Likely going to be spending the next few days working on a bunch of those little details that are boring for forums. Cleaning, painting, sand blasting and powder coating, plumbing, etc. I intend to document anything interesting for anybody else that wants to follow this swap like a guide, look forward to some interesting things to come soon!
I may be alone in this, but I do appreciate following the little details as long as they're picture heavy. Tech is always cool, but seeing the crusty parts turn shiny and new is satisfying! Either way, I like what I see. You have more ambition than I do. 
Regarding the cam bearing tool, that looks like the most user-friendly version I've ever seen. I have a universal off-the-shelf Mac tool, but it can be tough to keep the sucker straight. I suppose if I was as 3800 crazy as you (I'm getting there) I'd want the same one as you!
Regarding the cam bearing tool, that looks like the most user-friendly version I've ever seen. I have a universal off-the-shelf Mac tool, but it can be tough to keep the sucker straight. I suppose if I was as 3800 crazy as you (I'm getting there) I'd want the same one as you!
A while back I learned that the reason why there are a lot of asymmetrical brackets on vehicles nowadays is that the computer programs have it design that the die is nested to form and shear them and waste very little material because the parts Nest into each other in certain ways. So that pretty much every stamping gives them most/all of a car's parts for a weldment.
Remember these cars are rolling off the assembly line one every minute up to 24 hours a day.
Remember these cars are rolling off the assembly line one every minute up to 24 hours a day.
After dealing with random stuff that isn't project related, I finally managed to get back to progress here.
When you have powder coating setup, of course you have to use it. This is my favorite part to strip prior to sandblasting, because it's already powder coated to begin with and a complete pain in the ass to strip:
I got this wrinkle finish blue for another project, but it was too nice to not use here:
Other swap specific details: Power steering plumbing! I modified the '99 H-body pressure side, had to cut out a short section of bends to get it to fit, the return line on the Cavi was dumb - it had a flexible steel core that meant I couldn't just cut it to fit the filter. Basically I ended up cutting the entire rubber section off, put a bead on the steel tube, and used some appropriate 3/8 hose and clamps.
When you have powder coating setup, of course you have to use it. This is my favorite part to strip prior to sandblasting, because it's already powder coated to begin with and a complete pain in the ass to strip:
I got this wrinkle finish blue for another project, but it was too nice to not use here:
Other swap specific details: Power steering plumbing! I modified the '99 H-body pressure side, had to cut out a short section of bends to get it to fit, the return line on the Cavi was dumb - it had a flexible steel core that meant I couldn't just cut it to fit the filter. Basically I ended up cutting the entire rubber section off, put a bead on the steel tube, and used some appropriate 3/8 hose and clamps.
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