đź“° Auto News Ngauge closed down / VMP, SCT and Lund Racing visited by EPA?

Blood on Blood

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They don’t manufacture anything at pbd like the other companies that got one, but they did buy up all the n gauge’s and parts after they quit making them I think ken probably figures he’s small potato’s compared to the companies that got a visit

The tuners / calibration companies are being looked at, and Ken is leveraging Ngauge, which provides the ability to bypass emissions / turns off the emissions codes.

PBD is the same as Lund and the other tuning companies being looked at.
 

ragingclue

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They don’t manufacture anything at pbd like the other companies that got one, but they did buy up all the n gauge’s and parts after they quit making them I think ken probably figures he’s small potato’s compared to the companies that got a visit
I mean... E-Motion didn't manufacture any delete parts. Nor did they make any tunes. Devices left the company with NO ability to tune a vehicle out of the box. The tuning shops would have to do all of that on their own with their binary editors and the nGauge was simply the vehicle to get the 1s and 0s in and out of the ECM. That's it (compare that to SCT who shipped units with delete tunes on them from the factory). Yet E-Motion still got dick stomped (allegedly... I still haven't seen anything concrete but I'm just assuming given everything else that has happened that they may have been visited). What it comes down to is if you know your device is being used to defeat emissions -- even if you don't do any of that directly -- you are liable. E.g. someone sends you a support ticket saying they are having issues on their deleted vehicle... guilty, even though you had nothing to do with their decision to delete and tune for such a mod, nor did you have the ability to block it. Did you like a post on FB where one of your customers had his mod list and video of him driving on public roads? Etc.... Whether that will stand up in court or not, who knows... but who has the ability to find that out when they draw out the process for months (or years) while you are paying lawyer fees? You aren't even at the point where you can defend yourself in the process and they've already squeezed you dry....

Also SCT/Derive got hit much sooner and harder than E-Motion (again, assuming that's true); I'm sure there was info in there as well about Lund and some of the possible "nono" use cases once they scraped that place of all their data. I get that Jr is mad about E-Motion bowing out, but he should be conscious that not everybody has the capital/pull that Lund Racing does. Being able to even entertain fighting this beast is a luxury very few entities have. I would think Lund and HPT would be towards the top of the list of those with the most ability to fight, or to lead a fight anyway. BTW where's SEMA???

This has been coming for a long time on the gas side of things. Once the EPA was done raping and pillaging all the small businesses in the diesel aftermarket industry, it was the next logical step. I've linked their CAA Initiative pages from previous years here when we were talking about the diesel crap. If you read it, they're thorough, they don't give a fuck about any of the details or nuances, they're just there to exercise their moral and legal superiority over you, and send you to the poorhouse. It was only a matter of time before they went after the gas side. Does anybody think they were just going to go back to their offices and elephant walk around the room all day while arguing about whose Prius gets the best mileage after they killed the diesel aftermarket industry?

Jr is right that they take a very hardline and overly simplistic approach to ruling on these things though. It's like having someone without taste buds judging a chili cookoff. Hopefully some middle ground can be found, because as of right now, anything that increases emissions whatsoever is illegal. If they want to get dickish about things, that means gears. That means tire size/weight. That means fueling tables obviously, etc... If the letter of the law was really being enforced, there's very little you would lawfully be able to do to your vehicle. Getting an EO number is obviously a way around that, but there are still lots of restrictions and -- of course -- the cost of entry there is high.

Also, this whole thing about tying these actions to the new administration... bullshit. Absolute bullshit. This initiative has been spooling up for years and has been in full swing for at least a couple of those.

As far as PBD goes, they're in the same boat as everybody else. Whether or not they've gotten their visit yet, I don't know. But if they haven't, they should probably expect it. These tuners who have been very adamant about posting their exploits online for all to see are, unfortunately, going to have a very tough time fighting the EPA.
 

LikeABauce302

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E85 tunes reducing NOx was mentioned in the video. There's no doubt that the aftermarket can do things to improve performance with little impact on emissions, but the EPA won't care unless the parts are certified. EPA validation and certification is very costly. CARB makes it even more costly. Look at the price difference between a standard Magnaflow catted mid-pipe vs one with CARB certification.

Screenshot_20210303-102215.png
 

Pressure Ratio

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ragingclue ragingclue asked where SEMA was. SEMA is part of the big money pushing the Recognizing the Protection of Motorsports (RPM) Act. They thought they had a slam dunk and backing they needed to make it a done deal back in 2020. Still nothing about that happening. As Lund Jr said.

The issue is the clean air act isn't going to make exceptions. Heck, they removed some of the hints at racecar status years ago. Even if you get them to add exemptions for racecar and off-road motorsports stuff only, everyone knows that is only a small part of what these tuners and parts are being used for. The RPM act isn't fooling anyone.

for the automotive market, SEMA should provide a study on e85 fuels versus regular gas. If they can provide facts that show emissions requirements are easily reached with e85 tuning I think you might be able to target e85 specific tuning. Even then, they aren't gonna let you fly without proper emissions equipment, like catalytic converters. So you may have to buy a $2500 exhaust with a high-flow cat versus a $250 cat delete to go with your e85 tune. In some cases, the factory cats are not that restrictive anymore. But that might be the only way to stop the cat and mouse game.

Or buy a car that is available all over the world and use a tuner overseas. As that happens now already. Maybe Lund and others can move to Russia and offer their remote tuning services? lol


California sucks for modifying cars. It will really suck if the rest of the country is done in the same manner.
 

Blood on Blood

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Starting to wonder if it’s time to just ditch the Conra project and just buy something new and be done with it....

Hopefully by the time my shit is done it’ll still be able to be tuned..... Worst part is that the new setup tuned would be less pollution than the old shit was.

Does your 93 Cobra still need to go through emissions? If not, you are good.
 

Blood on Blood

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ragingclue ragingclue asked where SEMA was. SEMA is part of the big money pushing the Recognizing the Protection of Motorsports (RPM) Act. They thought they had a slam dunk and backing they needed to make it a done deal back in 2020. Still nothing about that happening. As Lund Jr said.

The issue is the clean air act isn't going to make exceptions. Heck, they removed some of the hints at racecar status years ago. Even if you get them to add exemptions for racecar and off-road motorsports stuff only, everyone knows that is only a small part of what these tuners and parts are being used for. The RPM act isn't fooling anyone.

for the automotive market, SEMA should provide a study on e85 fuels versus regular gas. If they can provide facts that show emissions requirements are easily reached with e85 tuning I think you might be able to target e85 specific tuning. Even then, they aren't gonna let you fly without proper emissions equipment, like catalytic converters. So you may have to buy a $2500 exhaust with a high-flow cat versus a $250 cat delete to go with your e85 tune. In some cases, the factory cats are not that restrictive anymore. But that might be the only way to stop the cat and mouse game.

Or buy a car that is available all over the world and use a tuner overseas. As that happens now already. Maybe Lund and others can move to Russia and offer their remote tuning services? lol


California sucks for modifying cars. It will really suck if the rest of the country is done in the same manner.

Thought the problem with the cats, high flow or not, is they are destroyed by the high boost?
 

FESTER665

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Does your 93 Cobra still need to go through emissions? If not, you are good.

No, it currently does not, Im saying more a question if they would be able to tune it or if tuners will be going the way of the dodo because they cant afford all these regulations and EPA taxes, or if tuning will be at a point its just no longer feasible due to the cost.

I assume if they did something like a carbon credit or "tax stamp" kind of thing, those costs would of course go to the consumer. So will getting a tune cost some obscene amount of money?

Realistically it should run fine with the Ford Control Pack I have for it, but I would have wanted to try to get more out of it once it was up and running and would get it tuned......

Who know, maybe theyll do that next, restomodded cars with engines that would normally need a test would now need a test as well.
 

Blood on Blood

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No, it currently does not, Im saying more a question if they would be able to tune it or if tuners will be going the way of the dodo because they cant afford all these regulations and EPA taxes, or if tuning will be at a point its just no longer feasible due to the cost.

I assume if they did something like a carbon credit or "tax stamp" kind of thing, those costs would of course go to the consumer. So will getting a tune cost some obscene amount of money?

Realistically it should run fine with the Ford Control Pack I have for it, but I would have wanted to try to get more out of it once it was up and running and would get it tuned......

Who know, maybe theyll do that next, restomodded cars with engines that would normally need a test would now need a test as well.

Agree - I think your issue may be finding someone to tune it, just the same as with other vehicles that require “tuning” when modifications, such as typical bolt ons and power adders, are installed.
 

Pressure Ratio

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Glen Ellyn
Thought the problem with the cats, high flow or not, is they are destroyed by the high boost?

Supercars today make more horsepower than most people on this board will ever make. So it's using the right parts and tuning for the application.

It's just going to cost a lot more and be more complicated to do it compared to catless setups. Which sucks.


Honestly, factory cars are getting so quick now that we have much better options to go fast than we did 10 years ago. The upfront cost is higher when compared to project cars. But it's not like back in 2005 when a 320hp motor was about as good as it got for a reasonable price.

I can't stand many government agencies. The clean air act has its place. Sure, make all new cars have requirements. But at least having an option to modify a car, within legal limits, should be available. Even if it is somewhat costly. Options like EPA-approved E85 upgraded packages, emissions credits you can buy, or what other options people can think of. It is just going to be painful to pay for this stuff when in the past it was cheap and easy.
 

Kaeghl

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hmm, if someone has some back channel communications with some of the involved companies please let them know that they should maybe look at the "right to repair" legislation that is a hot button topic right now. It varies from state to state but they could theoretically incorporate in a state with strong right to repair laws to prevent this kind of interference.
 

FESTER665

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hmm, if someone has some back channel communications with some of the involved companies please let them know that they should maybe look at the "right to repair" legislation that is a hot button topic right now. It varies from state to state but they could theoretically incorporate in a state with strong right to repair laws to prevent this kind of interference.
The problem is the agency going after them are federal, they give no shits about state repair laws. Most of these companies are all in Florida which I assume is pretty lax when it comes to these things, but the agencies are going after them anyway.
 
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