Netflix Making a Murderer Discussion Thread *SPOILERS*


Primalzer

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Even though the case is theoretically public knowledge, we'll get a discussion thread going for people that have finished...

[MENTION=109]TommyGloves[/MENTION] [MENTION=2449]ilikemtb999[/MENTION] [MENTION=111]OffshoreDrilling[/MENTION] [MENTION=341]sickmint79[/MENTION] [MENTION=917]1quick[/MENTION] [MENTION=702]SleeperLS[/MENTION] [MENTION=4838]1MEANGT[/MENTION]

Tried to tag everyone that mentioned they finished, so we can keep discussion in here
 
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Primalzer

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Personally, I think Steven Avery killed that women...I don't think he had the wherewithal to do it in the trailer or garage and clean it up...

But there are a lot of things that don't add up....the bonfire that night is pretty convenient...
 

daturbosix

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i did a bunch of online reading about the case and the series last night. apparently avery's defense team claims the show left out a TON of key evidence.
 

sickmint79

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well first off the show of course does not tell the full side of the prosecution and other evidence obtained. rather than a documentary about the avery boys' [potential] innocence it should be considered a documentary on police and judicial incompetence.

it's hard to come away with anything other than brendan dassey was wrongfully accused. the kid's mind was just putty for the officers to punch into whatever they wanted.

there seems enough holes in the case for steven that there is reasonable doubt.

who did it? i don't know. doesn't seem like the police figured it out either. the should both get their days in court again (i believe the wheels are in motion for brendan to)
 
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Primalzer

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i did a bunch of online reading about the case and the series last night. apparently avery's defense team claims the show left out a TON of key evidence.
From what I read, the parts they didn't include, did not seem to add much to the overall story, or were much more circumstantial
 
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Primalzer

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The big thing is, they really mother fucked Brendan
 

SleeperLS

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The documentary definitely skewed things after reading up on the case some more. The problem remains that our justice system is really messed up and has the potential to take advantage of under educated poor individuals. To me, the defense did a sufficient enough job to give reasonable doubt. Brendan got completely screwed as there was no actual evidence of him even committing a crime other than his "confession". Overall, it was a damn interesting show.
 

daturbosix

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The big thing is, they really mother fucked Brendan
x2. he was a minor at the time, and the authorities had no evidence to support his "confession" that later was claimed to be forced.. like cmon their lawyer couldnt get them outta that? shit....
 

OffshoreDrilling

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for one, being a documentary, you get only one view of the story and situation. However, based on the evidence provided, I found it quite insane that either party was convicted.

what blows my mind even more is how poorly the whole case was handled by the state of Wisconsin and manitowoc county, The subsequent requests for appeals being denied.

based on the evidence found, I'd say Steven Avery is most likely involved in her disappearance and murder some way, but in no way did it happen as the prosecution plays it out. the blatant lack of evidence (again based on what the documentary presents us) to place him at the scene is appalling. zero of her DNA is ever placed in his home or garage. the amount of intelligence and resources to clean up a murder scene that well has to be astronomical. this guy has neither based on my judgement.

one thing that IMO would really settle him being the murderer or not would be a more firm verification of his blood in the SUV.

Keep in mind this person has assumed innocence, and you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty and your judgement of him as a character outside of this situation needs to be irrelevant.
 

ilikemtb999

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I have two personal theories.

Theory 1. Bobby Dassey and his step dad Scott did it. They saw her leave, followed and did the deed. They then placed the car in the auto salvage knowing the cops would instantly go after Steve. I think her body was burned in their burn barrel and transferred. They were the only ones who alibi'd themselves and the bus driver dissproved when Bobby left for hunting as he hadn't been dropped off yet at that point. The cops took advantage of that and placed the evidence like his blood in the car and the key that only had his dna on it.


Theory 2, Lenk found said car after she'd been killed, placed the car in the salvage yard and proceeded to plant said evidence. That dispatch call when the police officer calls to verify a license plate and says "99 Toyota, right?" even though at that point it hadn't been disclosed yet if I recall.

I'd like to see a mass time line established by each side.

Also, I think the worst part is Brendan's verdict. That disturbing drawing that I think looked the worst to a juror is what did him in and it was gotten because his defense lawyer's investigator pressured him into drawing. I think if you've got an IQ of 79 and a reading comprehension of a 4th grader and a man of authority is telling you if you don't write down the story and draw the drawings that he can't help you and he'll go to prison forever. Hopefully the nationwide publicity will pressure the federal government to hear his case again. It's insane that half of that shit wasn't thrown out because of Len kachinsky.
 
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Primalzer

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Yeah, it still boggles my mind that Brendan was convicted of anything, let alone everything plus some that Steven did...from what I understand the Northwestern University law program has taken up his case
 

Ti28

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Brendan was "told" to draw the woman on the bed with chains. And he did what he was told. Anyone with a mush brain would do the same.

Why was her roommate and ex/boyfriend not investigated?

One thing everyone should take from this is. lawyer up for anything other than a stupid speeding ticket.
 
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Primalzer

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Everything came into perspective when Brendan was on the phone with his mom, and he's asking her what "inconsistent" means...
 
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Primalzer

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One thing everyone should take from this is. lawyer up for anything other than a stupid speeding ticket.
Brendan's lawyer actively fucked him though...
 
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Primalzer

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Oh for sure! I swear the fucker was working with the DA.
Well when it came out that the investigator was working WITH the prosecution?! That should've been enough to throw it out
 

Ti28

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Well when it came out that the investigator was working WITH the prosecution?! That should've been enough to throw it out
Agreed! There's so much fuckery with this case it's unreal! It honestly reads like a fictional crime novel.

The "evidence tampering" is flabbergasting.
How the key wasn't there on one search but showed up the next, his DNA was on it, but not hers. The little bit of blood in the car is awkward as hell. I saw that photo and was like wow, that doesn't look natural at all.
 
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Primalzer

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Vulture said:
If the last couple of years in American popular culture have taught us anything, it’s to thank the lord for every day you aren’t ensnared in our criminal-justice system. As episodes five through seven of Making a Murderer show, cops and judges don’t have to be malicious to do you wrong, and even ace defense attorneys Dean Strang and Jerry Buting — who are the legal equivalent of Ferris Bueller and Cameron Frye, respectively — can only do so much on your behalf.

In episode five, the representatives of the state complain to the judge that they are “swimming upstream,” or that they will be if the judge agrees to the defense’s suggestion that he give “curative instruction” to the jury. The defense points out that the jury has been exposed, via incessant media coverage, to salacious details about the case, including the allegation that Steven Avery raped and tortured Teresa Halbach before killing her, which the prosecution will not actually bring up, or bother to prove, during the trial itself.

The judge declines to give any special instructions to the jury, in the same manner he declines virtually all of the requests of the defense. The prosecution, in response, drops two of the charges that it had tacked on after taking into account Brendan Dassey’s confused, contradictory “confession,” and the trial of Steven Avery — on four counts, including murder — begins.

What follows is six weeks of trial condensed into a few hours of television, during which the state presents its evidence and the defense picks it apart. There are Halbach’s cell-phone records to pore over, her bone fragments to examine, and the splashes of blood to test for any indication that they came from a test tube rather than from Avery himself. There are also witnesses of a sort, people — including Brendan’s brother Bobby — who claim some connection to the property either during or after the time at which the crime is supposed to have taken place.

Everyone’s memory is faulty in some way, as is every piece of evidence. With only closing statements left to make, the defense feels cautiously optimistic that it should be able to leave the members of the jury with reasonable doubt as to Avery’s guilt.

A lot was packed into these three episodes. What was left out?

The defense maintains it was odd that the police never followed any other leads or treated any of the men in Halbach’s life as suspects. They’re right.
Women are much more likely than men to be hurt or killed by people they know. In more than one out of every three cases, and more than 40 percent in some states, the murderer of a woman turns out to be a “male intimate partner,” meaning a current or former lover. Additionally, more than half of those women who are murdered by intimate partners are shot to death, as it appears Halbach was.

Starting an investigation into the shooting death of a 20-something woman by interrogating current and former boyfriends would seem to be standard practice. And yet Halbach’s ex-boyfriend, who admitted on the stand to knowing Halbach’s voice-mail password and who may well have deleted some messages from her mailbox, was never treated as a suspect. Neither was Halbach’s (male) roommate, who only reported her missing after she had been gone for three days; her brother, who claimed to be mourning his sister before her body was even found; or any of the other men in her life.

Other possible suspects, who go more or less unmentioned by the documentary, include members of the extended Avery family.
As journalist and private investigator Ann Brocklehurst points out, “The [defense] lawyers’ list of suspects was dominated by members of the Avery clan,” including Steven Avery’s brother-in-law, Scott Tadych, Charles and Earl Avery, and the Dassey brothers. Investigator Michael O’Kelly, who helped Brendan Dassey implicate himself in the crime, is on record as believing that “Avery's brothers ‘could have had a role’ in Halbach's murder.”

Tadych, meanwhile, has a documented history of violent behavior against women, and he and his stepson Bobby serve as alibis for each other on October 31. Various amateur detectives on Reddit have been putting together cases against all of these individuals, as well as others.



Judge Fox’s behavior, in continually siding with the prosecution, is not unusual. And what appear to be missteps from the prosecution aren’t unusual either. Neither judges nor prosecutors are ordinarily held accountable for their actions, however objectionable.
In a blistering piece on the blog Above the Law, a lifetime criminal-defense attorney asserts that “judges and prosecutors don’t care if they’re right” and calls our court system “broken.” According to the Center for Prosecutor Integrity, “an estimated 43% of wrongful convictions arise from misconduct involving prosecutors and other officials.” And Americans in general are concerned: “Over two-fifths (42.8%) of the respondents say prosecutorial misconduct is widespread.” DailyKos reports that “nine studies have looked at misconduct over 50 years, on both state and national levels, and found 3,625 instances. Of those, public sanctions were imposed in 63 cases, less than 2 percent of the time.” The sanctions, when they were imposed, were mild.

District Attorney Ken Kratz insists that some incriminating evidence was omitted by the documentarians.
In an interview with Maxim magazine, Kratz maintains that Avery’s DNA “from his sweaty hands” also connected him to Halbach’s vehicle: “Do the cops also have a vial of his sweat that they are carrying around? The evidence conclusively shows that Steven Avery’s hand was under the hood when he insists he never touched her car.”

Kratz also says that some of Halbach’s personal possessions, including her cell phone and camera, were burned in a barrel on Avery’s property, and that “two people saw him putting that stuff in there. This isn’t contested. It was all presented as evidence at the jury trial, and the documentary people don’t tell you that.”

He also claims that Avery boasted while in prison of his plans to “torture and rape and murder young women” once he was free. Though the judge did not allow that evidence to go the jury, the fact that the judge considered it may help explain his apparent antipathy to, and fear of, Avery.

EDTA tests are indeed both rare and unreliable.
EDTA, or ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid, is a chemical preservative. The FBI performed a rush EDTA test on the blood found in Halbach’s car in order to report, in support of the state, that there is no indication that the blood came from the vial of Avery’s previously collected blood (which itself was tested and found to contain EDTA) rather than from a free-flowing source (Avery himself).

A lawyer on Reddit voiced his disgust: “FBI test can produce false negatives on EDTA, which is why labs stopped using the test. Shameful that the judge let them use that test.”

The O.J. Simpson case is another high-profile situation in which the defense used a sloppy crime-scene investigation to accuse the officers involved of incompetence, if not conspiracy. An article from the Green Bay Press-Gazette at the time of the Avery trial quotes the defense bringing up that case — the last time the FBI performed an EDTA test in a hurry — arguing that the lab notoriously “screwed up” in that instance and, presumably for that reason, had not been called to testify in a trial since:

“In the last 10 years, nobody has come to your lab and asked for your lab to give us the benefit of your knowledge and your ability to test for EDTA in bloodstains, isn’t that right?” Buting asked.

“It hasn’t happened to me personally or to my knowledge,” LeBeau said.

“That might be because your lab screwed up in the O.J. Simpson case,” Buting said.

“No. We did not screw up, as you say, in the O.J. Simpson case,” LeBeau responded.

Buting pointed out that FBI tests found EDTA in a bloodstain on a sock and the defense used that evidence to help acquit Simpson of charges that he killed his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend, Ron Goldman.

“I didn’t do the testing in the O.J. case and I’m not fully aware of all the final findings in that particular case,” LeBeau said. “I believe it’s been 12 years, but it’s my recollection that we didn’t report there was a significant amount of EDTA in that bloodstain.”

Cops have been caught, and even convicted of, planting evidence.
Leaving aside the O.J. Simpson trial, it is documented that police have planted incriminating evidence on defendants in various cases ranging from drug crimes across Alabama, in which thousands of African-Americans were framed over the course of a decade, to myriad other cases in Philadelphia, Camden, Detroit, Illinois, New York, and more. American servicemen in Iraq and Afghanistan have been convicted of doing the same.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/01/making-a-murderer-episodes-5-6-7.html?mid=facebook_vulture
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m_dogg

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So many things just don't add up it's crazy. Seems to me they want him locked up so he doesn't fuck with the state and portray them as crooks. 18 years the firs time, I doubt he'll get out of this one...

I just couldn't stand Kratz' voice throughout the series....then the text messages scandal. Great success! Fuck you.
 

Ti28

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Nope, totally missed that! I was in and out of the house while some episodes were playing.
 

Ti28

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I might have to.


Most of the stuff with Kratz, you could totally tell something was off. He would be asked questions and back pedal, or kinda shy away.
 

OffshoreDrilling

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pretty essential to pay attention to all the episodes, there is a lot of information presented throughout the series that paints the whole picture of the situation
 

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