LSx guys, let me pick your brains a moment.

Donnie

Ethanol Junkie.
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
2,888
Reaction score
14
Location
Tempe, AZ/SOUTHSIDE, IL.
Long story short, I've been desk-chair planning out and budgeting my next long-term project for quite some time. I've gotten as far as possible without currently having a chassis to toy with, as far as that side of things is concerned. I'm now moving on to the meat and potato's of things- The Drive train and power plant. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Mid-budget, mid-power Turbo LQ4. What are the keys for a reliable 600RWHP through a Tremec?

Original truck intake is out of the question for clearance reasons. What is the best bang for buck OE solution? LS1/LS6?

We've all heard and seen the abuses the stock bottom ends can take, but what is the preferred paths to ensure the longevity of a good few seasons? Hardware, Rods and Slugs?

What is the preferred Heads/Cam combo? Keep and work over the Stock 317's? Any additional points of concern here? I assume springs, rods, HG's and swapping TTY for Studs?

Is the MP 76mm still the go-to budget choice for 6-700 crank? Mind you, I'll undoubtedly be going with Ethanol.

I'm a fan of fuel system overkill; I've been bit in the ass enough times to have learned my lessons here. What are you gentlemen running?

Tuning solutions; What would be the preferred electronics to look for? F-body Harness and PCM, HPTuners? I have no idea on the limits of HPT in an application like this, any potential hiccups here?

Is there a preferred, lower-profile manifold set for a front-mounted turbo? Keeping in mind that clearances are an issue. Any good OE block-hugging options to potentially be flipped and re-flanged? CTSV? (The chassis I'm looking at has a strut-tower to strut-tower measurement of roughly 33"W.)


Sorry, last time I built a bow-tie it was a gen 1 383 and I was a highschooler... Times have a-changed.

Thanks guys.
 

OffshoreDrilling

This is my safe space
Donating Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
29,160
Reaction score
150
Location
Chicago
You're thinking way too big for 6-700hp. Stock crank, toss an off the shelf set of rods and pistons, ported 317s, mild cam. It would live forever at that power level on low boost
 

Wolfman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
1,713
Reaction score
2
Location
Evans Mills, New York
Mid-budget, mid-power Turbo LQ4. What are the keys for a reliable 600RWHP through a Tremec?

Keep your A/F and timing conservative. Don't rev to the moon.



Original truck intake is out of the question for clearance reasons. What is the best bang for buck OE solution? LS1/LS6?

LS6 or LS2 depending on how big of a TB you want



We've all heard and seen the abuses the stock bottom ends can take, but what is the preferred paths to ensure the longevity of a good few seasons? Hardware, Rods and Slugs?

Get all ARP hardware and you'll be fine. Plenty of guys rolling on stock bottom ends over 600 rwhp. If you can afford to throw new rods in, do it. The crank will be fine.



What is the preferred Heads/Cam combo? Keep and work over the Stock 317's? Any additional points of concern here? I assume springs, rods, HG's and swapping TTY for Studs?

This 317s are the way to go. Bigger combustion chamber than the 243/799 heads. Definitely get ARP studs.

Cam will depend on who you wanna go through. Plenty of good turbo cams out there. Personally, I told comp cams all of my specs and they custom milled one for my TT Vette.



Is the MP 76mm still the go-to budget choice for 6-700 crank? Mind you, I'll undoubtedly be going with Ethanol.

I'm a big fan of precision turbo.



I'm a fan of fuel system overkill; I've been bit in the ass enough times to have learned my lessons here. What are you gentlemen running?

I'm running 4x Walbro 255s with ID2000 injectors (ethanol). You won't need anywhere near that much for 600.



Tuning solutions; What would be the preferred electronics to look for? F-body Harness and PCM, HPTuners? I have no idea on the limits of HPT in an application like this, any potential hiccups here?

Holley EFI. I love mine.



Is there a preferred, lower-profile manifold set for a front-mounted turbo? Keeping in mind that clearances are an issue. Any good OE block-hugging options to potentially be flipped and re-flanged? CTSV? (The chassis I'm looking at has a strut-tower to strut-tower measurement of roughly 33"W.)

The truck manifolds should be fine.
 

Donnie

Ethanol Junkie.
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
2,888
Reaction score
14
Location
Tempe, AZ/SOUTHSIDE, IL.
In with the win, with a quickness. Thanks guys, you're the shit.

I'll be bumping this up as soon as a shell is picked up...
 

OffshoreDrilling

This is my safe space
Donating Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
29,160
Reaction score
150
Location
Chicago
I've got a set of truck manifolds collecting dust over at my parents house :s00ls:

a $20 bill would buy them if you want to pick them up
 

Lead Pipe

I'm Tiny Riiiiiiiiick
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
13,062
Reaction score
100
If it's really tight between the towers F body manifolds work well too. What platform is it?

As stated, for 600rwhp you can grab an LQ4 pull out, slap in a cam and and top it off with an LS6 intake. FMIC, injectors drivers for E85 and you can make that engine last forever at that power level.
 

willizm

Ho fuckin Ho!
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
10,539
Reaction score
95
Location
Saint John, IN
Straight from Denmah, this guy knows how to do budget junkyard builds like no other.
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/everything-ls/sloppyguidejunkyardturbols

Sloppy Guide to Junkyard Turbo LSx Builds
**Currently typing this up and adding to it ** stay tuned for updates **

So you want a turbo LS series junkyard Mill powering your shitbox into a pavement punishing "tyre fryer", and you're not sure where to start. Since this is the pandora's box of starting mountain sized arguements, Ill start with the minimal, tell you what I know and also give you my opinion on what is a waste of time and money. This can be as easy as going strait from the Junkyard into your car, or spend a small fortune on a stock engine, it all depends on the owner and your goals, and how much you want to spend.

Alright, lets begin with, This is going to be budget minded, I will start by explaining what you need, get the car running, and then again more budget minded add ons maximizing power per dollar only, All Killer, no Filler.

Engine Selection
The standard junkyard long blocks, Including! but not limited too! the 4.8/5.3/6.0 in my favorite flavor, Tired Iron.
Here is the bread and butter of the LS swap engines. Cheap, Effective, and manufactured in extreme bulk, 99-13ish (since 14 is now the direct injected LT series engine pouring in.) Vans, Trucks, Chassis, SUV's you name it. You can get lucky some days and maybe even find a ls1, ls2, l76, ls3, and some kind of car based alum engine. Or other crazy things, but don't count on it. Engine Codes and names and all that bullshit aside. ALL OF THESE ENGINES ARE EXCELLENT, quit being weird about needing a 6.0 only, or LS1-2-3 only. Listen, you have a budget, and you don't have a motor, Just get one and put it in the damn car.

I would say the most common is the "LM7" 5.3l motor in the 99-03 years. the 4.8 sometimes easier to find since who would want a shitty 4.8 right?
also people will tell you, only get a late model, or newer gen4 motor, talking about pistons and rods etc etc, Listen, the later year model engines do have "better" or more robust rods, and they have a floating piston, but we have gone extremely fast with the "shitty" gen 3 motors, and you can too... Furthermore, people will have the opportunity to buy a complete 4.8/5.3 for 500 dollars, oil pan to throttle, all coils, wires, sensors, etc. They will get what I commonly refer to as 6.0 envy, and instead, buy a 6.0 shorblock or largely incomplete longblock for 600+ instead. Stop and think, what the fuck are you doing. You're going to spend hundreds tracking down all the little nit pick shit to get that motor running. More commonly I have seen shit 6.0s for sale like this and people will buy into a problematic motor instead of just getting a running 5.3 or god forbit the junk 4.8.

We have to go on here so I will end my tangent. You can refer to other articles on the site to get information about the engines and more on the heads, casting numbers, dimensions and more.

Use your money wisely
This sounds obvious, but get whatever engine is most complete and in known good shape for your dollar, easiest thing you can do is pull the valve covers and see how clean the valve train is, make sure there isn't a rod hanging out of the block and the engine spins with some drag meaning the rings are not total shit. This is a funny statement because we have had some absolute sludge beast motors, looked like they were filled with wax, smoked terribly but made tons of power problem free haha. Try to get the engine Oil pan, to throttle, including coil packs, be weary buying an engine from someone they disassembled, why did they take it apart? why would you take it apart, its assembled and running, don't fuck with it haha. Obviously the more you start with the less you have to chase down or possibly buy incorrectly. Once you get into the mind set of just adding 20 dollars in stuff on top of everything you are getting, your budget will go to shit and you wont know why... you could have had a running swap for 2000 and you spent 6000 dollars and you don't even have a turbo, and you are cursing me out.

Early vs Late model Gen3-Gen4 Engines
Later year engines have benefits like better cyl heads, beefier rods and floating pistons, bear in mind they also come with bullshit like, DOD, VVT, expensive intakes and throttles, you will possibly need to buy items to delete and remove these things off the engine for performance setups, they might have failed or be ready to fail and give you issues etc. Keep in mind that you might need to spend the money on all these things when choosing a newer engine. My opinion is if you can get the 04-06 engine, 24x crank trigger, with beefier rods, and floating pistons, that runs all the old equipment pcm wise and has the most simple setups... In my opinion are the best engines to start with, since you will have room to grow pretty far, but still a simple start, and no complicated hardware.

LS1-Gen3 style cam position sensor on the back of the block
LS2 front read cam position cover on the first gen3 style engines and now on all gen4 motors



Hardware, sensor, internals, and other blended technology over years of gen3 to gen4 engines
what is tricky about choosing a junkyard motor is they blended years and items, hardware and technology over year make and model.
Ill try to briefly cover this, the first gen3 engines, have a 24x crank trigger, rear read cam position sensor, and very simple hardware, return fuel rails on the trucks, easy to use stuff... Now you see around 03 they started making the LS2 style motor, electronic throttle (in early corvettes also) and they moved the cam position sensor to the front timing cover.
next up floating style pistons and thicker rods, started going into the cars, then i think it went into the trucks next, and eventually hit things like vans, chassis truck etc, an easy way to tell if a motor is a gen3 but with the good internals, it will have the rear cam read, on the back of the "lifter valley" and have 13mm header bolts, and 13mm lifter valley bolts. They installed the larger head bolts at the same time they did the Internals, this has proved true in our experience so far.

Now that you have the most complete engine in any size for your swap car. We can move on.

How much power do you want to make, what is your goal
This is where it all goes wrong most times, most people come out swinging and say I need to make 800whp or I dont even want to start, Truthfully 500whp through a turbo automatic is enough to boil tire at highway speeds in most cars and make most people shit their pants.

How much power and what your goal for the vehicle is pretty important, I try to explain to everyone from what i have learned, almost everything numbers and slang wise about cars, is totally irrelevant. You need to see your build in the Currency of Horsepower... how much power you want to make will dictate your turbo size, build requirements, fuel system size, cam selection, trans, rear, converter, everything.

The one thing that everything can be compared to, directly is how much power it will make, or break, or take to create the power.
for most people 500-600wheel in a turbo LS car in the 3000lb range is flat out scary, or awesome, depends on who you are.
but that much actual power to the tire is enough to put a 3300lb notch into the 9s at 140mph, that is pretty fast, not sure who you are but 9s hauls the mail with a car you can drive to tractor supply and buy cat food.

if you have no idea what to do, i would say totally copy one of my standard setups that is proven, youll be pretty fuckin happy with it.

Recipie for 500-600whp Junkyard Turbo LS build
quick and dirty it goes like this
acquire junkyard LS engine, leave it totally stock other than installing Pac1218 valvesprings and boost it, or install a turbo cam under .600 lift (limit of the pac1218s)
install 80lb siemens deka injectors in stock intake, add 044 external or walbro400 internal fuel pump to vehicle (proven to support over 600whp so far by themselves)
3/8ths fuel line is fine, install any chinese 70-80mm turbo ($220-550, and 50-60mm wastegate $60-120)
use megasquirt or stock pcm and tune it or have someone tune it on pumpgas and methanol... wham 500-600whp

Links to items i mentioned and where i buy them:

I actually have KIT from VSracing where he grouped my most commonly bought items in one flat rate with adjustable upgrade items including injectors and all, VIREN who owns VS racing is SUPER smart and helpful and he can field tons of questions.
check out the DENMAH (sloppy mechanics) turbo kit

Walbro 400 in tank fuel pump ( you should install this in a stock style basket EFI tank )

Bosch 044 style external pump (will require funny fittings to fit the strait metric threads on both sides
look for them on jay racing

80lb siemens deka injectors ( approx 300-375 shipped, pay attention to the connector ev1 or ev6 for your setup when you buy)

on3 76mm turbo (i have used this on 2 builds, very happy with it since its smaller and easy to use, makes great power)

50mm EMUSA wastegate (works great, basically any gate in the 50-60mm range for 75-150 dollars works awesome)

200 dollar cooling mist base methanol kit ( i use this or something similar everytime)

EFI source's modified Microsquirt computer and pigtail harness (you wire this yourself)

EFI sources plug and play microsquirt setup for LS engines (comes with plug and play harness)

then i always get JDM sport couplers, 16-20 dollars shipped, stock throttle is 3.75 coupler size, then get strait, 90, 45deg bend, and 3 or 2.5 inch piping for intercooler piping

here is a FMIC and piping kit good for 600-700wheel hp you can get them in all sorts of sizes, couplers, lengths, they come with clamps, couplers, intercooler, use 3 inch at the most or 2.5 inch easier to fit
 

Yaj Yak

Harbor Master
Donating Member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
90,313
Reaction score
1,207
i like that article.
 

HILROD

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,471
Reaction score
38
Location
ELGIN
He just dynoed a 200,000 mile 4.8 with a slightly bigger turbo at like 714rwhp.
 

1quick

Well-known member
Donating Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
19,840
Reaction score
317
Location
coal city
It's a 270k mile 5.3 with a cam head studs and a s480 or 475 I can't remember but it was 720 something at 17psi
 

1quick

Well-known member
Donating Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
19,840
Reaction score
317
Location
coal city
The black and silver car your talking about? The cream colored one is the one with the 5.3 I was talking about, the 4.8 is bone stock if I remember right with just a home made turbo kit and a on3 turbo
 

HILROD

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,471
Reaction score
38
Location
ELGIN
The cream one. It has the motor from the black one, it had the trans from a stock truck. I think it has a different trans now. It's old drivetrain is in the black/silver one now.
 

HILROD

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
1,471
Reaction score
38
Location
ELGIN
The cream one. It has the motor from the black one, it had the trans from a stock truck. I think it has a different trans now. It's old drivetrain is in the black/silver one now.
It says "THE CREAM ONE". I know which car it is. I just wasn't sure what drivetrain was in it last.
 

Donnie

Ethanol Junkie.
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
2,888
Reaction score
14
Location
Tempe, AZ/SOUTHSIDE, IL.
I've got a set of truck manifolds collecting dust over at my parents house :s00ls:

a $20 bill would buy them if you want to pick them up
I'll definitely keep you in mind when the time comes. Thanks man.

If it's really tight between the towers F body manifolds work well too. What platform is it?

As stated, for 600rwhp you can grab an LQ4 pull out, slap in a cam and and top it off with an LS6 intake. FMIC, injectors drivers for E85 and you can make that engine last forever at that power level.
Yep, the towers and steering shaft are minor complications. I'd really like to avoid having something custom fabbed as opposed to a reflange, so I'm definitely looking for all low-buck and OE potentials.

Putting one of these turds back in my life.



I'm already drooling at the amount of Supra Snob butthurt I'm going to get. A shockingly small amount of these have been swapped, there's one documented LS1, an LS2 and an Australian that did an L92 along with a few Gen 1's. All incredibly spotty on documentation though. Which I'll just go ahead and laugh at; I love an I6, but for half the money I can build an LSx with 20x the longevity at the same power level. Plus, you know... Low-end torque and spool before 4k, cheap aftermarket and a delightful amount of chassis-flex.

Beats the fuck out of my last planned project and the common V8 swap, the Lexus 1UZ, which despite being an excellent engine- Has zero aftermarket unless you have Turk's credit card as well as being a 4L. I'm not going through a swap project to only gain a bank of Cylinders and one additional liter of displacement.


I'm a fan of over-building slightly, so you guys are shocking the shit out of me with just how stout these things are... Less money and time into the engine is more time and money for activities though.

:riski:

Straight from Denmah, this guy knows how to do budget junkyard builds like no other.
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/everything-ls/sloppyguidejunkyardturbols
Fucking. Excellent. Read.

Thanks for sharing man.
 

School Boy

Spray the cubic inch at it!
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
Messages
6,272
Reaction score
8
OP, go with a 4.8. They are very low budget and they can take one hell of a beating (if they are tuned properly). I have ran my sbe 4.8 all season and I make pretty good power for what it is. I haven't had a single issue. It has worked so well for me that I will be leaving this little fucker in for a long time.
 

Lead Pipe

I'm Tiny Riiiiiiiiick
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
13,062
Reaction score
100
I dig it. I already miss my boosted LS project.
 

Donnie

Ethanol Junkie.
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
2,888
Reaction score
14
Location
Tempe, AZ/SOUTHSIDE, IL.
It took exactly fifteen hours after my picking this up for [MENTION=917]1quick[/MENTION] to offer fabrication assistance.


I fucking love you guys. :hs:
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Top Bottom