🔧 BUILD LAME Turbo V6 Camaro

General Information

Hello! Welcome to the shit show! I am updating this post in 2021 to explain what new readers are about to witness. If I knew that this thread and build were going to explode into what it is today, I would have started it out a lot different.

This car was (and still is) a basket case. The whole inspiration for starting this project was to start learning how to modify engines in a car that I didn't like. That way, if and when I screwed up, I wouldn't be ruining a nice car. It spiraled out of control from the first moment that I felt boost. I loved what I had created, but it took a ton of work to get to where I was. As soon as I got the car running nicely I was always saying "I'm going to fix______, and THEN I'll just enjoy driving it." You know the drill. Drive, break, fix, repeat! Before I knew it, I enjoyed driving and working on this turd more than the nice car I was trying to preserve!

The point is that the focus of this thread shifts A LOT. To complicate matters, I never have just one ongoing project open at a time. I listed some thread contents with links below. I will update this as new milestones or big updates happen. Just know that even if you click on the shortcut, you may have to scroll past other project posts to reveal the outcome. There are also some mini-projects and very helpful advice from other members in between, so read the whole dang thing if you want!

2018-2019
1. A late introduction
2. Discovering how a PCV works (and plugging it)
3. Custom grill for intercooler
4. Fuel pump trap door
5. Learning that I'll never learn anything from my goofy wide band gauge
6. Deleting AC completely, but retaining heat
2020
7. Low profile heater hose fittings
8. Deleting an air bag without setting a light on the dash
9. Starting a second round of floor repairs
10. ABS delete and line lock installation
- A separate thread for the electrons
11. Installing catch cans with nice brackets (Way overkill)
12. Figuring out the "blow by" problem once and for all (F-body intake plug)
13. Second clutch job, first rear cover job, and preliminary transmission swap research
14. Floors are "done", and Interior is installed.
15. I don't know how to tune, but this wide band might help.
16. Poly trans mount. Yeah, it actually deserves a link.
17. I waved the tuning white flag. Dyno Brian sets me straight!
18. T5 Pro5.0 shifter
19. New shifter was too much fun. OG T5 explodes, and my transmission conversion ideas start to get serious.
-TKX conversion
-TKX swap official write-up
20. Reconfiguring my exhaust for a quieter and less leaky future
21. I'm not done enjoying this car for the year, so I install a $100 T5 instead of a bulletproof conversion. SPOILER ALERT: It only lasts two months.
22. Minor repairs/updates that make the car livable (lighting, stereo, speedometer re-zero, and a clutch master cylinder that actually does it's job!)
23. Wheels and addressing rust again since I got time!
2021
24. Custom center caps
25. 1.9 roller rockers and LS6 springs
26. CAI V2.0
27. TKX is delayed so it's time to address the little annoyances.
-OE pan is junk. Dorman pan gets hot rodded
28. TKX is still delayed, so I install just one poly engine mount and beef up my flimsy turbo drain plumbing
29. TKX does NOT ship the following Monday. Flywheel bolts upgraded to ARP M10 x 1.0
30. When you're on a Chinese garbage budget, you better be ready to work harder. (Oil drain fitting hot rodding)
31. Finally repairing the oil sender pig tail, replacing the other engine mount, and test fitting the TKX.
32. Finally addressing rear brake lines while I wait for more transmission parts.
33. Modifying an ICM for a WOT box
34. Dash gets re-instrumented so that diagnostics become possible.
35. N2MB WOT box
36. Porked crank key. PSA: Be careful installing your balancer!
37. Car runs great after plug change, but the rear main seal needs to be changed again.
38. BURNOUT! Also, I kinda bought a cam.
39. Turbo drain finale (better be) and full exhaust commenced
2022
40. Downpipe V3 and BMR strut tower brace
41. Panhard bar and relocation for bro truck exhaust
42. Muffler, driveshaft, torque arm, and giving up smoking.
43. First trip to the GS Nationals (feat. time slip)
44. The very custom AC project is born
45. New dyno results (up 50 hp!)
46. Exhaust hanger repair before Michigan/S.S. Badger/Wisconsin trip
47. Sizing a better turbo
48. Painting but still not installing the IS3 heads and Monster clutch unboxing
49. Firewall brace
50. New ECM
2023
51. Out of storage and SC engine buy failure #3
52. Modified double roller and spitballing crankcase evac ideas
53. Completing the rear suspension. UMI rear control arms.
54. Cracked headers and L32 swap begins
55. My newest L32 was trash. I'm upgrading the L36 instead
56. Side project: The ultimate-ish intake manifold takes shape


Now back to 2018!
1688935182526.png


Now that this car is running and driving, I figured I would start a thread dedicated to all the questions I’m about to pummel this group with. This is the first time I've really built anything to move quicker than stock, so I'm hoping to learn a lot from you guys before I make unnecessary mistakes. I also have a thread in the Turbobuick.com 3800 section, but I'm not getting as much input there due to a lack of audience. Here goes nothing...

The car I have is a 2002 Camaro with only ONE factory option (rear window defogger). The story supposedly goes that my buddy's dad was looking forever for a new Camaro because he never buys anything for a penny more than the best deal. He almost ran out of time as this was the final model year for the F-body, and '03s were already on the market. The dealer from which he found this car bought it for the sole purpose of being able to advertise "Brand new Camaros for under $10k", so this was the one he took home.

Fast forward to 2018. The car was structurally a wreck from living in the rust belt, but has a great interior, okay black paint, a third pedal, a 3800 (which is a plus in my book), and a lot of sentimental value since I remember riding in it when it was brand new. My buddy’s dad handed me the keys in hopes that I would enjoy it and make it a race car. To be honest, I don’t care for F-bodies, but I couldn't resist this one for the reasons above despite knowing that the floors were in desperate need of existing again.

I already had my dream car which is a 1986 Buick Regal Grand National. As much as I love that car, I like it the way it is in fairly stock form and modifying Buicks has gotten terribly expensive anyway. I figured a black 3800 Camaro could easily fulfill my childhood dreams of racing a badass turbo Buick V6 car while being on a budget, so here I am.

The car is now equipped with:
-6765 ebay turbo
-Precision PW40 wastegate
-Custom turbo exhaust utilizing a stock Camaro and FWD manifolds
-Air to air ebay intercooler
-AEM 50-1200 fuel pump
-Siemens Deka 80# fuel injectors
-Open 3” downpipe
-Custom 3” charge pipes
-Intense mail order tune
-Very ugly but functional upright radiator conversion (the core support was all just rust anyway) :dunno:
-Custom space saving AC delete without bypass pulley
-Midwest Chassis bumper support modified to mount my intercooler
-Spec Stage 1 clutch kit

The car is far from refined and has a lot of little issues to sort out, but I will leave the first post as sort of an introduction to that. I hope you enjoy hearing about it. It’s been fun to build!

Cgge0Pb.jpg


uapwiw2.jpg


08tL6Rj.jpg


7zXNhuZ.jpg


PVLQyzg.jpg

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
I don't remember if I ever brought this issue up the first time I did the clutch, but its a little more critical now. I'm having more F-body specific 3800 pains. The bolts for a flywheel are longer than those for a flexplate, and they are TTY. I'm willing to reuse them once, but I think twice would really be pushing it.
Flywheel bolt 1.jpg
Flywheel bolt 2.jpg


I'm currently in contact with TA Performance about getting a custom bolt set. They really only deal with old school Buick stuff, but the son of the owner happens to be a 3800 guy as well. I don't know much of the details, but he claims to have a few custom sets of longer flex plate bolts for sale. They're still only 3/4" long, but I sent him these pictures and mentioned how GM TTY bolts are at least $6 a piece, so he said he would look into options for 7/8" or 1" bolts. I think this would be huge for the Fiero community. Buying these bolts over and over again really sucks! Even if they were cheaper, nobody selling them ever seems to have a full set of eight.

Is anybody else in here running a manual trans? What bolts are you using to hold the flywheel? bs009 bs009 ? Mattstrike Mattstrike ? I've read some really old Fiero forum posts about people using ARP SBC cam bolts, but most others jeered at that idea. Something to do with being a lower grade bolt than the original GM stuff? I dunno, but what I do know is that I don't want my flywheel to try sawing my feet off at 7k rpm.
 

bs009

Making 3800's Great Again
Feb 13, 2014
698
2,129
NashVegas
I actually ordered a set of those ARP cam bolts myself, but haven't used them yet. I haven't had to re-bolt on a flywheel yet, I just removed mine and installed the flexplate.

FWIW, right now I'm using grade 8 bolts from lowes with blue threadlock for my flexplate. It's been working fine for the past few (3?) years, and probably 10,000 miles of ~20 psi boost levels.
 

bs009

Making 3800's Great Again
Feb 13, 2014
698
2,129
NashVegas
For the T56 swap, this is the adapter I'm looking at using when I'm finally caught up and ready to throw money at my car again:

It would use the t5 bellhousing and looks like it would bolt up to the mid-plate on the t56. Could still use the t5 flywheel/clutch and slave cylinder.
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
I actually ordered a set of those ARP cam bolts myself, but haven't used them yet. I haven't had to re-bolt on a flywheel yet, I just removed mine and installed the flexplate.

FWIW, right now I'm using grade 8 bolts from lowes with blue threadlock for my flexplate. It's been working fine for the past few (3?) years, and probably 10,000 miles of ~20 psi boost levels.

Well I guess that's good to know. I'll keep this in mind if it comes down to it.

For the T56 swap, this is the adapter I'm looking at using when I'm finally caught up and ready to throw money at my car again:

It would use the t5 bellhousing and looks like it would bolt up to the mid-plate on the t56. Could still use the t5 flywheel/clutch and slave cylinder.

I looked at that for a while as well. To be honest I kinda forgot about it though. I have one big issue with it. T5s and T56s have a multitude of input shaft lengths. Do you know if theres a T56 shaft that's the same length as the V6 T5 plus the width of that plate? Otherwise, you may need a spacer or machine work. Then again, the Mal Wood Adapter may have the same issues being that it's for a Holden. There are so many questions when it comes to these damn trans swaps!
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon

I found a little write-up from that Firebird guy. It gives an idea on how to use the Mal Wood adapter, but ever that seem like a big PITA. I like that the adapter bs009 showed us will incorporate the stock bell housing. Lots of trade-offs I guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GTPpower

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
For the T56 swap, this is the adapter I'm looking at using when I'm finally caught up and ready to throw money at my car again:

It would use the t5 bellhousing and looks like it would bolt up to the mid-plate on the t56. Could still use the t5 flywheel/clutch and slave cylinder.

Sorry if I'm getting annoying. Work is so watered down because of the virus that I have nothing to do other than screw around on the computer. Anyway, I just noticed that this plate only has the Muncie pattern on it. I would have to find a 60 degree bell with a Muncie pattern on the other side. Luckily the first generation S10s had these-
S10 Muncie T5 bell.jpg

This creates another issue though. Now the new bell needs to be hacked up to accept the Camaros HTOB plumbing and driver side starter. These old castings are not that great, so I'm not sure if cutting one up and putting a whole bunch of power through it is a great idea. I might be overthinking it though. If you decide to go that route, I hope you post the progress! Mal Wood's adapter requires a little bit of massaging on the engine side, so it's not exactly a cake walk either.
 

bs009

Making 3800's Great Again
Feb 13, 2014
698
2,129
NashVegas
honestly I hadn't noticed that before... it's been a while since I've even looked at the 3800 t5 bellhousing though.

In that case it might be better to just grab some 1/2" thick aluminum sheets and have them drilled out to the right specs then. I don't know what that could cost though to have it done by a machine shop. Right now that seems like a fairly simple option...

The biggest issue I have with going this route though is that I'm worried it could be limiting what clutch options can be used. AFAIK nobody makes twin or triple disc clutches for a 3800 so they would be pretty expensive to have done or get replaced. I think Ideally you'd somehow adapt the flywheel to use an ls-style clutch instead along with the ls-bellhousing
Honestly I haven't been that serious about looking into things though myself. I've spent so much money on my projects during the last 5 years that I've been forcing myself to stop so I can catch up on my debt from it and all of my student loans and other crap. It'll be at least another year before I start buying the parts I think.
I do have a lot of free time now with the covid19 crap though so maybe I'll look into this more tonight haha. I'm pretty determined to get this to work. I hate the 4l60e so much :ROFLMAO:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: v6buicks

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
Ha! I know the feeling. I don't like to think about how much time and money I've spent on these things. I guess the time part is fine, but the money.... o_O

I'm going to measure my input shaft when I get home. I have an idea... I THINK these 3.4/3800 input shafts are close enough to V8 shaft size in which case a TKO600 would be plenty beefy (although pricey) and be a nice fit. If the V6 shaft is longer then there's this.


I didn't notice until today how difficult it is to get any information regarding a 4th gen V6 T5. Everybody wants to talk about Ford, S10, and third gen stuff.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bs009

bs009

Making 3800's Great Again
Feb 13, 2014
698
2,129
NashVegas
Yeah tko is another good option. I figured if I'm already spending over $2,500 ish then I'd want at least another gear though lol.

You should be able to have it ordered however you need it to be too according to Tremec, but again I haven't looked into it seriously though because I didn't really want another T5 haha!
 
  • Like
Reactions: v6buicks

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
Quarantine day 8 - My simple clutch job has turned into a full-on transmission swap research project.
Input shaft length.jpg

Input shaft length approximation its hard to hold the level flat on the end of the pilot shaft while adjusting the caliper.

I took a couple other measurements just in case I wanted them later.
Input shaft width.jpg

Input shaft width.

Pilot width.jpg

Pilot width

Both the input and output shafts have 26 splines. According to this chart, it oddly seems that the Ford unit is damn close to being a bolt-in unit. I would need a new driveshaft yolk, but it seems that I wouldn't even need to replace the driveshaft if I just wanted to wait until I did a rear end swap.
TKO Dimention Chart.png


There are still a few things that I'm assuming though. One is that the Ford TKO case is different from the GM and has a Ford trans pattern instead of a Muncie. I think that would be really silly to make all these "bolt in" claims if it didn't, but I haven't seen a picture of a Ford patterned unit anywhere on their page. Another assumption is that the input shaft dimensions besides length are are same. I haven't found those specs yet, but I think the worst case scenario would be needing to turn a custom pilot bushing or turn the pilot down to accept a stock bushing. Having an overall thicker input shaft would make clutch options tougher for the "bolt-in" guys. The last assumption is that I'll be able to bolt my stock HTOB mount in place of the TKO bearing retainer. Considering how this is really just a beefed up and updated T5, I have high hopes that my assumptions are correct. However, if it all checks out, I think this will be my easy way out.

The T56 idea is cool AF, but that's a lot of coin, more weight, and involves a lot more unknowns. 600 lb/ft is no joke for a 3800 build so I think I'd be happy with this for a while. This of course is all in the "honeymoon stage" as I call it. Nothing has been purchased, no questions have been asked, and everything is just a big idea. This will probably have enough stuff going on to warrant it's own thread, but I think I'll keep it here until I actually go forward with a swap.
 

bs009

Making 3800's Great Again
Feb 13, 2014
698
2,129
NashVegas
I'd call up Tremec or whoever sells the transmissions for them. I bet they can send you one that bolts in.
From what I've gathered, the world class t5's in mustangs should be pretty similar to the 3800's T5. they'd have different bellhousings and tailshafts obviously though. I think they have a different input shaft too.


I almost want to build a wiki for information like this. So little information out there is well documented with evidence or findings.

Input shaft diameters, lengths, pilot bearing depths, diameters, etc.
flywheel bolt circle diameters
flywheel diameters
bolt thread sizes and lengths

lots of things zzp sells are just sourced from other parts too and it'd be cool to have all of that info documented somewhere.
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
Dude you and me both. Don't get me wrong. There is a lot of great info on the T5 out there, but it's so hard to get enough of it in one place. It was longest running production of a transmission ever and it's extremely versatile. The aftermarket has only made it better. Then compiling all the bell housings that fit on to a 3800 is a chore too. You have to remember that Jeep used the same bell pattern on their 2.5L for a little while. Isuzu and Northstars would fit in there too!

Another thing that would be nice to know is some actual torque ratings for each T5 combination. I've heard some different numbers thrown around from Mustang guys and their V8 WC units, but never anything concrete. None of the T5s made after Fox bodies and Third gens get talked about much at all.
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
In case anybody needs proof or confirmation the flywheel bolts are 5/16" - 18 x 7/8" Grade L9 and there are 8 of them.
1.jpg


The pressure plate bolts are M8 - 1.25 x 22mm There are 6 of them.
IMG_20200326_065658.jpg


I don't know what the grade of these are, but it appears that ARP 108-2201 will work assuming they are long enough. I'm just waiting to hear back from Summit on that one. Has anybody else seen these letters and numbers on a bolt head? These are new to me.
IMG_20200326_080515.jpg


bs009 bs009 regarding those SBC cam bolts I just noticed that they are the Pro Series which have a 200k psi tensile strength. That's good, but I was just informed that the underhead length is only 3/4". Bummer. That's shorter than stock. Although I'm sure there would be decent thread engagement, I would feel a lot better with the extra thread or two in there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bs009

Mattstrike

Random Crazy Custom Car guy
Feb 13, 2014
542
1,139
Sorry I'm late to reply about bolts.

Everything on mine are high-strength socket head cap screws. That's all those fancy aftermarket bolts are anyway. I order off McMaster-Carr, listed under alloy steel, tensile strength is 170,000 PSI.

TTY is just an OEM installation gimmick - makes it nearly foolproof for them to assemble on an assembly line and always hit their torque numbers. You can get into arguments about head gasket crush and how the rotating assembly might cause certain issues, but for a clutch/flywheel a dab of loctite to make sure they don't back out (even OE bolts have that) and correct torque proceedure (stepping up to the rated torque) is all you need. Do not under-tighten them, and if one doesn't torque out properly replace it (quality control is never perfect).
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
Today I learned that the stock pressure plate bolts don't use all of the available threads in the flywheel. Odd.
PP to FW bolt threads 1.jpg


PP to FW bolt threads 2.jpg


I could probably get away with buying bolts that are another 0.25" longer. ARP 108-2201 is a no go, because their their threads do not go all the way up to the head. I may just go grade 9 or reuse the stock stuff.

Oh yeah! I'm also officially done with sheet metal work! ? I just have to seam seal a few spots and hit some areas with more undercoating. Then I will throw the interior back together.
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
Today is the day I finally quit bitching about floors!
DONE 1 3-20.jpg


DONE 2 3-20.jpg


Carpet back in 3-20.jpg

I almost forgot that this car used to look really nice inside before I tore it apart. The end of the stay-at-home order is going to be lit. I can't imagine what the first cruise nights are going to look like.
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
Wow! It's been a long time since I've seen the car look this complete. I'm pretty impressed with how well I did on keeping the parts together too. I'm only missing one seat belt bolt and one of those clothes hanger clip things that goes on the top of the B-pillar. Considering that I stored all this stuff this in my basement for the last two years I think I've done pretty well. Keep in mind that the basement has flooded twice in that time frame too. :oops: I'm lucky the carpet doesn't smell or look like complete crap. I did a lot of work to clean it though.
Interior back together 3-20.jpg

I'm just waiting on a flywheel now. I'll bet that it takes a week to get here. :( It should get drop shipped from the manufacturer tomorrow.
 

v6buicks

TCG Elite Member
TCG Premium
Oct 22, 2018
6,262
15,458
Franklin, IN
Real Name
Jon
I decided to try something. It turns out that my local Advance has a pretty good grade 10 bolt selection. When I saw these longer flanged versions of my original pressure plate bolts I thought I hit the jackpot! $6 and done. I thought it was strange that my original bolts weren't flanged nor did they have any washers.
New grade 10 PP bolts 1.jpg

New on left. OG on right.

Nice...
New grade 10 PP bolts 2.jpg


NICE!
New grade 10 PP bolts 3.jpg

Not that I was particularly worried about the original bolts... I mean if it was good enough for GM then it should be fine now!

While I was buying bolts I figured I would try replacing the missing seat belt bolt too. No problem. It's a little long, but I can deal with that.
Belt anchor bolt 3.jpg


If I didn't cut it down I might have ended up with a reverse circle track suspension! The control arm is at full droop in this pic and much closer to this bolt than it appears.
Belt anchor bolt 1.jpg

Cut down
Belt anchor bolt 2.jpg


I can't wait to drive the crap out of this thing!
All the seats in 3-20.jpg
 

Thread Info