BUILD LAME Turbo V6 Camaro

bs009

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That's where I'm running into a wall. It may not even work the way it does with yours with the dbw setup or without them hooked up I would think it would be sticking to the TCS afr at idle like mine does. What I want to do is try tying the wires together and see if that kicks it out of doing it or if it actually needs the pulsed signal from the bearings to turn it back off. Keep in mind at this point I'm in perma open loop which may have something to do with it all but iirc your car is as well?

bs009 bs009 how did you get around abs on your swap? Your afr and pe work correctly and go back to stoich at idle? Or is mine maybe just a freak or I have somethin twisted in the toon to make it do the things it does?
No issues on my end with PE or AFRs. I've tuned out all of the nannies on mine. Not sure what the tables look like in HPTuners but I've completely disabled traction control, torque abuse, transmission torque reduction and all of that stuff.

I think in theory you could somehow use the traction control tables or something to help set another rev limiter and pull timing, but I don't know when the pcm will start using those tables and I'm pretty sure it communicates with the BCM/ABS module to know it needs to do something there. Plus those tables appear to kill injectors too to control rpm and you don't want that when you're trying to spool the turbo.

I'm totally un-invested in solving problems like these though now that I have the Holley :LOL:
 

sktchy3.8

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I have my stuff turned off as well but there is a linear afr table for it as well as a spot to pin timing to a certain ⁰

Odd that mine reacts the way it does and it's not doing it with your cars. Maybe I should swap a pcm before messing with bearings to see if anything changes but I still think there's some potential there. As for shutting down injectors you can make it stop doing that too but now I'm wondering if somethin in the mix isn't helping me keep bottom ends in it 🤣
 

bs009

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Another thing as far as AFRs I had to edit too was the "catalytic converter over temp a/f ratio" but that seemed to have more to do with AFRs going to 13 randomly while cruising. Basically turned it off with the "cat protection coolant" table
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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Fun stuff. Suddenly my HP Tuners doesn't even work anymore. A pop-up is telling me reinstall VCM Suite. I've been dreading the day that HP forces an "upgrade" that no longer allows me to do crimes.

After installing the latest version, it's doing the same shit. I better fire up my old laptop and see how it feels about all this.
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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My old laptop fired everything up without issue. Looks like I need to hold onto this thing even longer because HP won't do anything on my Windows 11 machine. I'm glad I didn't sell the Windows 7 machine with my DHP!
 

sktchy3.8

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That's weird. I'm not having an issue with windows 11 so far
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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So according to ancient and sorta poorly written forum posts, I need to change all these cells to -50. Does that sound correct?
IAT antilag 1.png

1.png
 

sktchy3.8

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Your basically going to end up pulling 50 degrees across the board if you do that. I'm not sure how retarded you would want the timing for it to 2 step but that would put you at negative 20s and 30s pretty easily
 

sktchy3.8

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I think if it was me I'd start with like negative 20 there and see what it does and maybe work your way into the desired effect
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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I gotcha. -50 seemed very extreme to me too. I'll start at -20 and creep my way down if I need to.
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The clutch pedal position switch is for cruise control and won't work for anti-lag for reasons including but not limited to the switch being on the wrong end of the pedal. I would not want my timing to be all screwed up while I'm trying make the car move. I also want to keep the cruise control that I just installed!

The start switch is the only thing that seems to make sense. I thought this would be perfect regardless of whether I decided to go with the IAT or N2MB. The diagram above seems to tell me otherwise. It only switches power through the start position of the key which is then given to the starter relay. There are no other uses for it. I guess it's time to bypass this switch, because I always leave my car in neutral when it's parked anyway and I hate needing to get into the car every time I want to start it. Then it will be a dedicated anti-lag switch. I love unplanned free upgrades. lol
 

sktchy3.8

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Start Switch on the clutch pedal? I guess that's what I was thinking anyway. I'm the same about using the park brake instead of the gear to keep it stationary. I wonder if the cruise switch would be any different on the drive by cable setup where it has the extra box and cable to control it?
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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Start Switch on the clutch pedal? I guess that's what I was thinking anyway. I'm the same about using the park brake instead of the gear to keep it stationary. I wonder if the cruise switch would be any different on the drive by cable setup where it has the extra box and cable to control it?
If you used the cruise switch you would pull timing any time your foot is on the clutch pedal. It does not have to be fully depressed, so it would anti lag even after you let the pedal out to take off. You don't want that.
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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I had to put it on paper so that I would stop wondering how this is done. After some light studying of the FSM, I came up with this. I had read that a lot people use the tan wire instead of purple but I don't see why it would matter since the IAT is just a shitty thermistor. This ought to be easy.
1653418673075.png
 

bs009

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So according to ancient and sorta poorly written forum posts, I need to change all these cells to -50. Does that sound correct?
View attachment 120536

View attachment 120537
yes pretty much what I did. There's a minimum ignition advance table somewhere so you're basically pulling everything out until it hits the minimum.
It will only do it when the temp reads -40 / open circuit, and that should be setup to only happens when the clutch pedal is down and you've enabled it through a separate switch somewhere in the car.

I wired my clutch switches differently but I believe I tapped into one of the sets of wires on the cruise switch. There's two sets of wires on the cruise switch at least on the cable TB cars
 

sktchy3.8

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Yeah it doesn't seem like it'd be a real hard thing to do. I think the struggle will be in figuring out how to set a limiter on it and pigging fuel out because I don't know that you wanna be bouncing off 6k
 

GTPpower

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It seems like having actual timing someplace around 0 works pretty well for helping it spool. Some like -5 and some +5. So I would play with it a bit and see what works best.
 

sktchy3.8

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I kinda figured that would be enough to get the job done. I've never messed with 2 step stuff so this has been some good stuff
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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All this talk was great, but I think it just further pushed me toward doing what I was going to do all along. That's the N2MB.

I already have it, it didn't cost much, It won't be a huge bear to install, and it will do what I need it to do. TR6 will be an invasive upgrade with a single coil that I'm not convinced is better than S2 coils. The MSD thing is cool as hell, but expensive as hell too. It also still uses stock coils. The IAT trick is cool, but it won't do as much as the N2MB nor will it be much easier to install. The CNPs would be super cool, but I have two major issues with it. 1.) I have no idea how it works, and there is no full how-to write-up that I can reference. 2.) From what I've seen, nobody has gotten a true 2 step to work with it.

In the end, there's a bunch of pros and cons to each system. The only way to go with better everything seems to be Holley EFI, and I'm not ready for that yet.

I never talked about my weekend. I was so excited about the cruise control that I decided to drive the car up to Chicago.
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I've never seen such a huge margin between E85 and regular. The C30 takes mid-grade so I would have paid a $1.03 MORE per gallon if I took that car which is ludacris. In terms of percent difference, the Camaro still didn't help pay for itself , but the recently added cruise control IS because we hit a new MPG record.
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I think that's the first time I've scraped my way into the 20s. The C30 would have gotten about 27-28 mpg, so in terms of percent difference the cost of fuel didn't go down as much as my MPG. If I can get a leaner cruise tune, and the E85 cost margin to stay where it is I'd be ballin on a budget.

I may never see this happen though because I listed the C30 for sale. For the first time in almost exactly 10 years I may be Volvoless.
 

sktchy3.8

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We've been at 2.99 3.99 for a while now. It's kinda of a wash but the corn smells better
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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I don't have much to update. I've actually been following through on the promise to myself that I would drive and enjoy the car as much as I possibly can this summer. So far I have.

..but I continue to have crazy ideas. The cruise control and console lid have been much appreciated, but the fuel economy has always suffered. My spark plugs are two heat ranges colder than stock and gapped to .030", but I'm only running 12 psi on E85. This doesn't add up. I decided to get a set of TR6s (one heat range cooler than stock) and open the gap up to .040". Now that I'm learning a bit more, I'm assuming that the tuner suggested the plug and gap of .020" so that we could save time. Efficiency be damned! Today was my first time driving with the change, and so far I have not experienced any break ups while beating on it. I will fill the tank on my way home and start calculating MPG. My hope is that I'll increase it enough to make driving the Camaro cheaper than the C30 which I run on 89 at roughly 27 mpg.

Before I buttoned it all back up, I had to make a repair. My weld broke where the downpipe support met the pipe. No surprise. Those welds looked awful and my fitment was awful. I was a little more careful with the fitment this time.
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Weld still turned out pretty crappy, but it's still better than before.
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I'm excited to be finding all the things that hold this car back from being a reliable daily. I'm learning a lot. Will all this make me want to drive the car daily though? Hell no! This thing is toasty even with all the exhaust fixes I've made. The front and rear glass are like magnifying glasses for the sun. I still have no regrets deleting AC because it was necessary for achieving the serviceability I desired with the turbo parts. However, I'm still crazy enough to want both, and I've gotten a lot more confident with my abilities since I first put all this nonsense together.

If you haven't seen my other thread, there are some cheap universal AC parts becoming available on Ebay and Amazon. These may be able to solve my two biggest issues when it comes to installing AC. The first one is the lack of space for the stock evaporator. Even in all stock form, that thing makes valve cover removal and #6 plug changes a massive pain. With the turbo, it makes downpipe existence impossible. The second issue is that my exhaust crosses over where my compressor used to be. I could have built a wonky front crossover with an open downpipe or under k-member deal, but I would not be happy with any of those solutions.

I think I've gathered enough information to make some purchases. I do not think for a second that my solution will even come close to the performance or reliability of a factory AC system. However, I think tinted windows, and solid execution will make this effort very appreciated on a 90 degree day. I can build another HVAC box similar to the one I made for the AC delete with factory heat retention. I'll just have to add a much smaller evaporator back in with a serviceable bump on the "delete plate". The Jeep Wrangler YJ evaporator is probably the perfect space-saving ticket here. As for the compressor, 12V units apparently kind of suck, but they're getting much better. Having the freedom to put a compressor wherever I want without disturbing anything else is the only way I want to do this though. The condenser will be very simple. Lines/hoses should be easy enough to make, and wiring everything so that everything works with factory controls appears to be very simple as well.
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I'm in the market to buy a complete stock AC unit from a parts car. I'd like to experiment with fitting evaporators on the bench while the car stays in one piece because I have a feeling that this is going to take a while to figure out and get right. Completing this successfully would make this car ready for ANYTHING I want to do which excites the hell out of me.
 

sktchy3.8

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Good Tint and the fan helps considerably. Iirc my window guy used scorpion stuff on my car? But he said the higher quality tint helps these cars alot with the heat and from my experience with it he was right. It was like bein in a pressure cooker before and now it's actually cooler with the t tops on it.

Not that it's any substitute for ac but it helps. Excited to see how this turns out and I've got an ac unit or two around and I think a good condenser in the other car yet if you need it. I don't think I'm quite ready to give up the hvac box out of it yet I may get a hair to use that yet at some point after chopping mine up
 

sktchy3.8

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Also as far as drivability it's seemingly neverending, that's why I'm trying to work out as many quirks as I can before I'm confident enough to get it out again. Too many things can go wrong too fast and cause alot of unnecessary work when done in haste and I've seen way too many builds half-assed together just so they can be driven that it drives me nuts. It's easy to put together somethin and just go wot for 10 or 15 seconds, it's another thing to work out the kinks and be able to cruise it without worrying about it leaving you on the side of the road.
 
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v6buicks

v6buicks

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I agree to an extent.

The more I go out and enjoy my car the more I dislike "racecars", so I get the sentiment. Of course a true max effort build is cool in any case, but cars making mediocre or even decent power with no creature comforts or drivability are not cars that I care to own anymore. At the same time I get that not all of us have the same level of skill or money. Not knowing how is is not an excuse to not try. The internet is an amazing resource that tells us a lot of what we need to know, but let's face it. The internet doesn't build the car for us. We all have to start somewhere and learn one way or another which is why I don't look down on those less refined builds. My car was (still is) a pile of shit when I first built it. It's suffered from a lot of my naivety and mistakes. It was rushed together in some cases to make it to certain events. I also needed to redo a lot of that work because of it.

It didn't matter though. I learned form that, and more importantly I did it myself. The Camaro is the first car I've ever driven with considerably more power than stock thanks to ME, and that alone was a very glorious feeling despite the holes in the floor, stinky oil smoke, dump truck shifter, and inconsistent vacuum leaks. If I never gave myself a seemingly arbitrary time goal like a local cruise night or test and tune, I guarantee you that this car would still be on jack stands or in the crusher. I would never have stayed motivated or focused on the car without some fun/proof/success in the middle. Each event that this car barely made it to, showed off, and survived the ride home was a big motivator to keep working for me. Of course there were some failures along the way too. I didn't make it to a cruise night this past weekend actually, but we all have our limits. I decided it wasn't worth limping this thing to a cruise without a downpipe support or one that I would have to redo again. I don't ever expect to be winning any trophies, but this is all about MY driving and learning experience anyway. "Fuck the haters" or whatever the kids are saying these days.


Back to the show. I feel like further explaining my AC idea. Typing it all out helps me think. Here's a little drawing of how my HVAC currently works. The fan blows through a small passage that I made so that it's not blocked by the firewall plate. Then it goes through the stock blend door.
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Here's essentially how it was in stock form minus the firewall plate. You get the idea. Bulky.
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Here's my new plan. While the evaporator will have to be 1/4 of the size at most with a less than stellar flow path for the air to travel, I think air will eventually get forced out and cooled.
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Maybe this picture of my modified heat-only box will give you a better idea of the space I'm working with. You can see that a long and short evaporator is what I'll be going for. I'll also want to sink it in as close to the blower and blend door as I can. I don't remember exactly how the blend door functions, but I might be able to buy a little room in there.
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It's going to be a big hacking and fiberglassing party, and I still don't even know if I'll be able to make the shit fit with my down pipe. The only thing I can guarantee is that all this is going to be tight AF. Another big L for my system will be my center vent delete. I may need to consider ditching the vent gauge pods for a pillar pod eventually, but I'm going to live without doing that in V1.0. I have made arrangements to pick up two dash units tomorrow. They're only about 15 minutes apart. One is $80 and the other is $50. This will be a lot to store, but it will allow me to screw one up or try two different evaporators. This crazy humidity we've been having is making me excited to start all this.
 
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