🔧 BUILD LAME Turbo V6 Camaro

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Hello! Welcome to the shit show! I am updating this post in 2021 to explain what new readers are about to witness. If I knew that this thread and build were going to explode into what it is today, I would have started it out a lot different.

This car was (and still is) a basket case. The whole inspiration for starting this project was to start learning how to modify engines in a car that I didn't like. That way, if and when I screwed up, I wouldn't be ruining a nice car. It spiraled out of control from the first moment that I felt boost. I loved what I had created, but it took a ton of work to get to where I was. As soon as I got the car running nicely I was always saying "I'm going to fix______, and THEN I'll just enjoy driving it." You know the drill. Drive, break, fix, repeat! Before I knew it, I enjoyed driving and working on this turd more than the nice car I was trying to preserve!

The point is that the focus of this thread shifts A LOT. To complicate matters, I never have just one ongoing project open at a time. I listed some thread contents with links below. I will update this as new milestones or big updates happen. Just know that even if you click on the shortcut, you may have to scroll past other project posts to reveal the outcome. There are also some mini-projects and very helpful advice from other members in between, so read the whole dang thing if you want!

2018-2019
1. A late introduction
2. Discovering how a PCV works (and plugging it)
3. Custom grill for intercooler
4. Fuel pump trap door
5. Learning that I'll never learn anything from my goofy wide band gauge
6. Deleting AC completely, but retaining heat
2020
7. Low profile heater hose fittings
8. Deleting an air bag without setting a light on the dash
9. Starting a second round of floor repairs
10. ABS delete and line lock installation
- A separate thread for the electrons
11. Installing catch cans with nice brackets (Way overkill)
12. Figuring out the "blow by" problem once and for all (F-body intake plug)
13. Second clutch job, first rear cover job, and preliminary transmission swap research
14. Floors are "done", and Interior is installed.
15. I don't know how to tune, but this wide band might help.
16. Poly trans mount. Yeah, it actually deserves a link.
17. I waved the tuning white flag. Dyno Brian sets me straight!
18. T5 Pro5.0 shifter
19. New shifter was too much fun. OG T5 explodes, and my transmission conversion ideas start to get serious.
-TKX conversion
-TKX swap official write-up
20. Reconfiguring my exhaust for a quieter and less leaky future
21. I'm not done enjoying this car for the year, so I install a $100 T5 instead of a bulletproof conversion. SPOILER ALERT: It only lasts two months.
22. Minor repairs/updates that make the car livable (lighting, stereo, speedometer re-zero, and a clutch master cylinder that actually does it's job!)
23. Wheels and addressing rust again since I got time!
2021
24. Custom center caps
25. 1.9 roller rockers and LS6 springs
26. CAI V2.0
27. TKX is delayed so it's time to address the little annoyances.
-OE pan is junk. Dorman pan gets hot rodded
28. TKX is still delayed, so I install just one poly engine mount and beef up my flimsy turbo drain plumbing
29. TKX does NOT ship the following Monday. Flywheel bolts upgraded to ARP M10 x 1.0
30. When you're on a Chinese garbage budget, you better be ready to work harder. (Oil drain fitting hot rodding)
31. Finally repairing the oil sender pig tail, replacing the other engine mount, and test fitting the TKX.
32. Finally addressing rear brake lines while I wait for more transmission parts.
33. Modifying an ICM for a WOT box
34. Dash gets re-instrumented so that diagnostics become possible.
35. N2MB WOT box
36. Porked crank key. PSA: Be careful installing your balancer!
37. Car runs great after plug change, but the rear main seal needs to be changed again.
38. BURNOUT! Also, I kinda bought a cam.
39. Turbo drain finale (better be) and full exhaust commenced
2022
40. Downpipe V3 and BMR strut tower brace
41. Panhard bar and relocation for bro truck exhaust
42. Muffler, driveshaft, torque arm, and giving up smoking.
43. First trip to the GS Nationals (feat. time slip)
44. The very custom AC project is born
45. New dyno results (up 50 hp!)
46. Exhaust hanger repair before Michigan/S.S. Badger/Wisconsin trip
47. Sizing a better turbo
48. Painting but still not installing the IS3 heads and Monster clutch unboxing
49. Firewall brace
50. New ECM
2023
51. Out of storage and SC engine buy failure #3
52. Modified double roller and spitballing crankcase evac ideas
53. Completing the rear suspension. UMI rear control arms.
54. Cracked headers and L32 swap begins
55. My newest L32 was trash. I'm upgrading the L36 instead
56. Side project: The ultimate-ish intake manifold takes shape


Now back to 2018!
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Now that this car is running and driving, I figured I would start a thread dedicated to all the questions I’m about to pummel this group with. This is the first time I've really built anything to move quicker than stock, so I'm hoping to learn a lot from you guys before I make unnecessary mistakes. I also have a thread in the Turbobuick.com 3800 section, but I'm not getting as much input there due to a lack of audience. Here goes nothing...

The car I have is a 2002 Camaro with only ONE factory option (rear window defogger). The story supposedly goes that my buddy's dad was looking forever for a new Camaro because he never buys anything for a penny more than the best deal. He almost ran out of time as this was the final model year for the F-body, and '03s were already on the market. The dealer from which he found this car bought it for the sole purpose of being able to advertise "Brand new Camaros for under $10k", so this was the one he took home.

Fast forward to 2018. The car was structurally a wreck from living in the rust belt, but has a great interior, okay black paint, a third pedal, a 3800 (which is a plus in my book), and a lot of sentimental value since I remember riding in it when it was brand new. My buddy’s dad handed me the keys in hopes that I would enjoy it and make it a race car. To be honest, I don’t care for F-bodies, but I couldn't resist this one for the reasons above despite knowing that the floors were in desperate need of existing again.

I already had my dream car which is a 1986 Buick Regal Grand National. As much as I love that car, I like it the way it is in fairly stock form and modifying Buicks has gotten terribly expensive anyway. I figured a black 3800 Camaro could easily fulfill my childhood dreams of racing a badass turbo Buick V6 car while being on a budget, so here I am.

The car is now equipped with:
-6765 ebay turbo
-Precision PW40 wastegate
-Custom turbo exhaust utilizing a stock Camaro and FWD manifolds
-Air to air ebay intercooler
-AEM 50-1200 fuel pump
-Siemens Deka 80# fuel injectors
-Open 3” downpipe
-Custom 3” charge pipes
-Intense mail order tune
-Very ugly but functional upright radiator conversion (the core support was all just rust anyway) :dunno:
-Custom space saving AC delete without bypass pulley
-Midwest Chassis bumper support modified to mount my intercooler
-Spec Stage 1 clutch kit

The car is far from refined and has a lot of little issues to sort out, but I will leave the first post as sort of an introduction to that. I hope you enjoy hearing about it. It’s been fun to build!

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v6buicks

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100th reply! Of course it's to myself... At least it's a positive update!

I finally figured out this stupid narrow band thing. After lots of thinking and no actual diag it didn't make sense that I my car was still calculating fuel trims, running pretty well according to the wide band, not having a CEL, and not having any response at all from one O2 sensor.

I started screwing around on the Torque forum and Aeroforce manuals where I was reminded about how GM name's their sensors weird (and flat out wrong IMO). I was viewing S1B1 and S1B2 which is bank one and post cat.... what I needed to be viewing was S1B1 and S1B3... as if my engine has three banks, but whatever. It's fixed! I can finally see what's going on and it feels great.
 

v6buicks

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I've been enjoying the car a lot now that I know it's running pretty well. It turns out I need to turn my boost down a little though.:s00ls: I'm still embarrassed by all the smoke coming out from under the hood while sitting at lights though. Moving on...

I'm trying to get this PCV stuff sorted out so that I can justify replacing seals. I applied some compressed air to it and noticed that it doesn't really seal when closed, so here I am.

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Anybody have any ideas of where to tap in for a catch can on an F-body? Id like to go into the valley if possible. Otherwise, I'll try welding some fittings on to the valve covers.
 

v6buicks

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I didn't want this to open a big can of worms with this simple project, but it's heading that way already. Despite the "No fucks given" vibe I was initially going for, most of the efforts I have put into it have been fairly well planned and thought out. I don't just want a catch can to be in the way or look out of place. I still have very little money in this car, but "no fucks given" just isn't how I like to do things.

The AC is mostly deleted and never coming back, so the evaporator box is just in my way and looking ugly. I keep thinking that a firewall plate would be a really nice place to mount a catch can. The parts that suck are the labor involved in installing one and the fact that none of them seem to have provisions for keeping heater function. I may just run the valve cover breather for a while, and see if this fix alone helps my smoking problems. I can probably worry about the catch can later.
 

v6buicks

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My mind changes every day....

I put the PCV plug in last night night and drove the car to work today. This did a lot more good than I expected! In fact, I might try to get away with no catch can. I no longer have obnoxious clouds coming from the breather or rear main seal, but my tune is off now. It sits at around 7:1 for a minute on start up before finally adjusting. I figured this would happen, but it's for the best in the end. I'll keep an eye on my breather and seals. Hopefully I don't have to do the rear main after all! Fingers crossed.
 

SaturdaysGS

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My mind changes every day....

I put the PCV plug in last night night and drove the car to work today. This did a lot more good than I expected! In fact, I might try to get away with no catch can. I no longer have obnoxious clouds coming from the breather or rear main seal, but my tune is off now. It sits at around 7:1 for a minute on start up before finally adjusting. I figured this would happen, but it's for the best in the end. I'll keep an eye on my breather and seals. Hopefully I don't have to do the rear main after all! Fingers crossed.



PCV plug? Interesting...
 

v6buicks

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I'm unsure on the fbody intake, but is there possibly another passage that needs plugged in addition to the pcv?

There are essentially just two holes. One is in the bottom of the plenum that goes down to the valley through the LIM. This is where the PCV resides. The other one is directly above the lower hole on top of the plenum, and that's only used to make replacing the PCV possible. It's covered with a plate and has a spring between the plate and the valve which keeps the assembly in place.

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Since the the PCV is already inside the plenum, there is no vacuum leak that needs to be sealed off.
 

Mattstrike

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When you put a breather on the valve cover, using a pcv plug, there will be an un-metered air source.

The side of the PCV that goes to the port between the MAF and throttle plate goes directly to the crank case. The PCV valve goes between the crank case and the vacuum side of the throttle. Even if you skip the catch can you still need a check valve on the breather.
 

v6buicks

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Do you know of any valve cover mounted breathers that would work for this situation? All the breathers I can find for modern GM covers are the style I have with no fitting. In the long run I'd like to weld fittings to the valve covers and put the oil cap back on, but for now I'd like to keep it simple if possible.
 

v6buicks

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The smoke is back, so the plug is coming out. I really don't know how to explain this. At least with my GN the smoke only comes out when I'm at WOT and maybe a few seconds after. This car smokes whenever it's hot, and it doesn't even smell like oil... I don't get it. It doesn't help that I can't really tell where it's coming from. It's just kind of burning off the passenger side manifold which made me thing oil from the breather. The crossover pipe smokes directly under the oil pan too.

Life in general is kind of kicking my ass right now, and the cars aren't helping. I might just park them for a while and enjoy my air conditioning.
 

Mattstrike

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Ok. Think of it this way. Consider the crank case as an air tank. There is an inlet and an outlet. Both sides of the tank pull air after it's been metered by the MAS. So air circulating through doesn't effect AFR.

If you block the PCV valve (the outlet), air will stop flowing. But the inlet side, the passage is integrated into the throttle body casting and is the hole between the throttle plate and the MAS, is still open. When the crankcase starts getting pressurized because of turbo boost, all that oily mist gets blown into the throttle body.

If you put a breather on the valve cover, you're adding another inlet except the air is not coming from behind the MAS. You have un-metered air anytime air flows through the throttle body that is coming from the breather, through the crank case, through the port in the throttle body and into the TB after the MAS. Under boost, you will have a lot of flow out of the breather, but there is also decent amount of flow backwards into the throttle body still.

So your PCV options are (1) live with a little oil burning and use the type of setup I have on my truck and most likely what's on your GN. This requires a PCV valve to be functioning. (2) add a one-way valve to the breather, and put a catch can between the port on the throttle body and the crank case. Again, PCV valve still there. (3) completely separate the PCV from the metered air side of the intake by blocking both PCV valve and TB passage, put a catch can between the crank case and a breather to only vent excess pressure.
 

SaturdaysGS

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I hate to somewhat derail this thread, but it’s related and reading all this info I seem to be confusing myself. My turbo GP has a PCV valve and a vacuum line running from that location to the MAP sensor, as well as teed into a line running to the blow valve. Is this correct? It has a breather but I’m assuming it should have a catch can instead?
 

v6buicks

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Ok. Think of it this way. Consider the crank case as an air tank. There is an inlet and an outlet. Both sides of the tank pull air after it's been metered by the MAS. So air circulating through doesn't effect AFR.

If you block the PCV valve (the outlet), air will stop flowing. But the inlet side, the passage is integrated into the throttle body casting and is the hole between the throttle plate and the MAS, is still open. When the crankcase starts getting pressurized because of turbo boost, all that oily mist gets blown into the throttle body.

If you put a breather on the valve cover, you're adding another inlet except the air is not coming from behind the MAS. You have un-metered air anytime air flows through the throttle body that is coming from the breather, through the crank case, through the port in the throttle body and into the TB after the MAS. Under boost, you will have a lot of flow out of the breather, but there is also decent amount of flow backwards into the throttle body still.

So your PCV options are (1) live with a little oil burning and use the type of setup I have on my truck and most likely what's on your GN. This requires a PCV valve to be functioning. (2) add a one-way valve to the breather, and put a catch can between the port on the throttle body and the crank case. Again, PCV valve still there. (3) completely separate the PCV from the metered air side of the intake by blocking both PCV valve and TB passage, put a catch can between the crank case and a breather to only vent excess pressure.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I'm starting to get on the same page. Part of what was hanging me up was all this pre-throttle talk. Due to the location of the PCV, I was in a bit of denial that there was a passage in the intake connecting the valve to the throttle body. However, I can see it in diagrams, and I just realized that I never removed the throttle body when I pulled the intake off. I wouldn't have seen it for my self. I think tapping into that passage would be tricky since there aren't any hoses. It's all cast into the intake and throttle body.

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I'll have to take a look at your truck thread and see what you did. I'll check to see what my GN is doing too, but it smokes bad enough to to shut down a track for a few minutes... That's what I'm trying to get away from.
 

Mattstrike

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The cover plate above the PCV valve on the F-body intake is a manifold pressure reference. It sees vacuum at idle and pressure under boost. Adding a vac line there for the BOV or to a MAP sensor would be fine, though without seeing it I couldn't tell you why they didn't use the factory MAP sensor location.

I think the plastic (fwd) intakes are different, don't know if you can drill out and tap the cover for the PCV valve to do that, but it doesn't sound like it's necessarily related to the PCV system - it was done out of convenience. I don't know that the metal (fwd) intake looks like, but doesn't matter, the idea is the same.

As far as the reason for the catch can - the air inside the crank case is basically an oily mist. The original function of the PCV is to circulate air and help remove environmentally problematic vapors from the crankcase, as well as water vapor, and burn them and send what's left to the cat, controlling those emissions. The amount of oil mist that gets taken in and burnt off is minimal in a factory system, compared to what happens when you account the additional flow from blow-by under boost. Keeping oil out of the combustion chamber in a boosted application is more important: enter the catch can.

Again, depending on how your pcv is setup determines where the catch can needs to go.

Throwing a breather on a valve cover with nothing else done only prevents excess crankcase pressure and opens an un-metered air source (which can probably be tuned for). A breather + check valve prevents excess pressure, but doesn't allow un-metered air. Both methods are not as 'green' as a closed PCV system. Both allow the oil mist to enter the intake and or exhaust from the breather.

Putting a catch can between the breather and the check valve prevents oil mist from exiting the breather, keeping the engine bay and exhaust manifolds clean. It's the simplest way of modifying the existing PCV system for these 3800 turbo cars and still retain a reasonable yet partial emissions control over the crankcase - but still allows some oil to be drawn into the intake.

If you wanted a proper, closed PCV system on a turbo setup, it's much more involved, especially if you want to keep 100% of the oil out of the intake as well, you need two catch cans, a stock pcv valve that can handle the pressure you're running, completely re-routing both sides of the PCV through the catch cans, and block off the port to the throttle body, no breather valve. Then, relocate the MAS to the intake side of the turbo. A new port, between the MAS and turbo intake, goes to the first catch can, then directly to the crank case. The second catch can goes between the PCV valve and the crank case. Probably a lot more work than anybody really cares to do for the minor emissions difference between the breather setup.

The only reason to block the PCV valve is if you're essentially deleting the emissions control. Completely blocked off from the intake with a breather (with or without catch can) lets everything breathe in and out of the crankcase, "harmful vapors" included.
 

Mattstrike

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After reading a little bit of what you're going through, I think the big thing you're fighting is a rear main seal oil leak. I had this problem on mine, with many new rear seals. It got so annoying I ended up turning a custom rear main seal press thing for my hydraulic press to make sure it went in perfectly straight, and bought the AC Delco rear main. Every other rear main (felpro, mahle, whatever) leaked bad enough to send clouds of smoke anytime I hit WOT. It's the worst after an oil change and the oil pan is full.
 

v6buicks

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After reading a little bit of what you're going through, I think the big thing you're fighting is a rear main seal oil leak. I had this problem on mine, with many new rear seals. It got so annoying I ended up turning a custom rear main seal press thing for my hydraulic press to make sure it went in perfectly straight, and bought the AC Delco rear main. Every other rear main (felpro, mahle, whatever) leaked bad enough to send clouds of smoke anytime I hit WOT. It's the worst after an oil change and the oil pan is full.

You may be right, I have been going a bit crazy over this. The trouble I'm having with all of this PCV/smoking/whatever issue is that the car never even smells like oil... In fact it smells like paint and the back of the oil pan isn't even wet. I'm running Rotella 10W-40. Does that smell different? I DID paint and wrap my crossover pipe which is what is smoking really bad right under the rear main. Coincidence? I doubt it. The paint should have cured and quit smoking many heat cycles ago. My brain hurts, and I've been parking this car on and off for my mental health's sake.
 

v6buicks

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My brain hurts, and I've been parking this car on and off for my mental health's sake.

FWIW I don't mean this to come off as bitchy. I'm not giving up on this car. In fact it's the only one in the fleet that I haven't considered selling. I'm overall pretty proud of what I've made this turd into. I just need a break from working in this crazy humidity!
 

v6buicks

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I got a bit bored at work today and found some pretty in-depth PCV information from Pennock's Fiero Forum as well as some older turbo GM sites. I may end up killing two birds with one stone.

My GN has an aftermarket part store PCV valve in it. I've learned that these don't actually close worth a crap under boost. The AC Delco parts were the only good ones because they were actually designed for The GN, Sy/Ty, Turbo Sunbird, ect. Unfortunately, they are no longer produced. However, smaller outfits will sell you a custom brass/billet PCV that's better than stock which is what I will probably go ahead and buy for that car.

With this in mind, I will probably have to get crafty with the Camaro because the stock PCV is pretty much the same part as the aftermarket GN valves. So far it's looking like I need to hack up the nice little PCV spring and retainer plate to externally route my vacuum to the throttle body. This would be the only way I can think of effectively incorporating a check valve. I just don't yet know how I will get it done while making it look nice. It's possible that the fancy GN valve would work though. I might have to do some test fits.

Mattstrike, I'm sure this is what you were saying all along. I just needed to read it a different way. Thanks for your help!
 
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Mattstrike

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I wasn't aware of the pcv valves not sealing well. I could see how in the GN a discontinued part puts you at the mercy of the aftermarket - but I thought the 3800 parts didn't have that issue. The only smoke I got out of my truck has been from oil leaks in the turbo seals. If it's really an issue, maybe the turbo cobalt pcv valve could be adapted?
 

v6buicks

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I wasn't aware of the pcv valves not sealing well. I could see how in the GN a discontinued part puts you at the mercy of the aftermarket - but I thought the 3800 parts didn't have that issue. The only smoke I got out of my truck has been from oil leaks in the turbo seals. If it's really an issue, maybe the turbo cobalt pcv valve could be adapted?

Yeah, I can just blow through them with lung pressure. If I put actual pressure to it with my compressor it doesn't seal at all. I'll look into the Cobalt as well! That may be a closer match.
 

v6buicks

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I did a little experimenting last night. The Camaro PCV is on the left and the cheapo aftermarket PCV is on the right. Look familiar?

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How about now?

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The GN part doesn't fit without cutting the big nipple off the bottom, but that's not a big deal. This proves that a stock GN part will at least fit, but I'm not conviced that the drop-in Grand National part from RJC is going to be as "drop-in" to the Camaro.

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I'm thinking its going to need a strategically sized washer to keep the spring tension on it. The big kicker is that there isn't a lip for the o-ring. The GN just has a big grommet , so the o-ring is not needed. I don't think I'm going to be able to do much about that.

A choice that would probably work better without much creativity is a Delco GN valve. You can still buy them from restoration companies like Highway Stars, but once they are gone they are gone, so it's not very sustainable if I have a problem with it down the road. Besides, even GN guys have said that they have to run check valves in line with theirs.

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GM has since changed their design completely. One side has a quick connect end, and the other has a hose fitting. I haven't found out how big the OD of the QC is, but I might get lucky. They are cheap enough, so I'm going to try getting one of these from the part store and taking some measurements.

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I'm finally done pulling my hair out over my girlfriend's Volvo 240 instrument cluster, so the Camaro is next in line for my love. lol
 

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