3800 I have a lot of cam swap questions

[sktchy]

30$ seems really reasonable to have it done right.

Whoops, 1.6 would be even higher lift difference. May be thinking Ferd or something.

You'd be at .646 and 0.6365 with 1.9s and that cam. If you multiply those #s times .85 you'd end up with .5491 and .541 as the desired peak flow lift. Yeah, you're not gonna get even close with these heads based off ported #s I've seen. Definitely doesn't seem worth the headache. If you had heads that flowed near .55 I'd give it consideration but these just aren't those heads.

So by this logic anything over a .540 would be a waste anyway?

 

[sktchy]

But what about the lift differences in cams? It looks like the blower cams favor the exhaust and the turbo cams favor the intake with more lift? Is there any particular reason for that and what does that do in reference to flow?

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Also, looking online at #s people are putting out with that cam if you have the goodies to support it I think you'll blow past 500 at the tire. If you have the time my advice would be to do something like put washers on a long screw that are the diameters of about 60% and 85% of your valve diameter

30$ seems really reasonable to have it done right.


So by this logic anything over a .540 would be a waste anyway?

Here's some rando head flowing #s I found looking on Google, I saw a few others that scaled similarly. What one really wants to pay attention to is the lift levels and the deltas.

Lift (In) Stock Stock
Intake Exhaust
.100 58 47
.200 118 102
.300 162 134
.400 184 155
.500 193 160
.600 194 161
.700


Here's what my personal heads did in comparison to those numbers

Intake Exhaust
.100 67 54
.200 134 112
.300 185 154
.400 214 183
.500 231 196
.600 238 202
.700 241 206

So as an example notice how there's 9 CFM flow difference from .4 to .5 (it would have been better to have stuff flowed with more granularity such as .45 lift) vs a 1 CFM difference between .5 and .6. That means as is the port is done. Even looking at the ported numbers he gained 17 CFM at .4->.5 vs 7 CFM from .5->.6.

If it were me and I had the time I'd look at the book I mentioned above and then probably use a 3/8 carbide burr and some sanding drums to expand the top of the bowl to 85% of the intake valve diameter and taper that into about 65% of the valve diameter at the bottom of the bowl then see if the head had any shrouding that could be ground out. Valve job money is probably well spent here as well honestly even with zero in port grinding.

Looking on line that cam seems to be what big power guys are running. I don't see any reason this thing shouldn't get 500 to the tire pretty easily with this cam provided there's enough turbo to make it happen. I found 2 entries on a FB group 1 of which was 870WHP with ZZP Aluminum heads at 24 PSI and another at 637WHP with S4 (Intense?) heads and a more modest 19 PSI.

 

[GTPpower]

Also, looking online at #s people are putting out with that cam if you have the goodies to support it I think you'll blow past 500 at the tire. If you have the time my advice would be to do something like put washers on a long screw that are the diameters of about 60% and 85% of your valve diameter


Here's some rando head flowing #s I found looking on Google, I saw a few others that scaled similarly. What one really wants to pay attention to is the lift levels and the deltas.


So as an example notice how there's 9 CFM flow difference from .4 to .5 (it would have been better to have stuff flowed with more granularity such as .45 lift) vs a 1 CFM difference between .5 and .6. That means as is the port is done. Even looking at the ported numbers he gained 17 CFM at .4->.5 vs 7 CFM from .5->.6.

If it were me and I had the time I'd look at the book I mentioned above and then probably use a 3/8 carbide burr and some sanding drums to expand the top of the bowl to 85% of the intake valve diameter and taper that into about 65% of the valve diameter at the bottom of the bowl then see if the head had any shrouding that could be ground out. Valve job money is probably well spent here as well honestly even with zero in port grinding.

Looking on line that cam seems to be what big power guys are running. I don't see any reason this thing shouldn't get 500 to the tire pretty easily with this cam provided there's enough turbo to make it happen. I found 2 entries on a FB group 1 of which was 870WHP with ZZP Aluminum heads at 24 PSI and another at 637WHP with S4 (Intense?) heads and a more modest 19 PSI.

The 637whp is my buddy's car. It has zzp s4 heads on it.

 

[sktchy]

In my case my turbo and fuel system would probably be tapped at 500 and I don't think I'd want to push an l36 bottom past that anyway. My thought process behind the blower cam was that maybe it would be more ideal for a smaller turbo build than say a big turbo cam that would be shooting for those bigger numbers.

I do have some "good" heads off bottom ends I've trashed I could play around with tho so I may give this a go and if I don't feel comfortable doing it myself then I could just take another set in and have it done right.

 

[sktchy]

One more question pertaining to zzps modified retainers, are they machined enough in themselves to run the extra lift or do the valve guides still need to be cut down?

 

[GTPpower]

It depends on the cam.

 

[sktchy]

Wellllll....

 

[GTPpower]

Wellllll....

View attachment 106726

You would need the valve guides milled with that most likely.

 

[sktchy]

That's what I was thinking. I did see zzp has some updated retainers but I wasn't sure if they'd give enough room or not. I guess to let the cat out of the bag this cam and double roller setup has 200 miles on it before the motor went and the previous owner decided to go a different direction and I got both with the cam gear already machined to fit the crank for less than what the cam itself would've cost.

Probably not one of my best ideas the way things have gone for me so far but I wanted to give it a solid go on the next one and have some faith that I can finally get it right.

 

[bs009]

That's what I was thinking. I did see zzp has some updated retainers but I wasn't sure if they'd give enough room or not. I guess to let the cat out of the bag this cam and double roller setup has 200 miles on it before the motor went and the previous owner decided to go a different direction and I got both with the cam gear already machined to fit the crank for less than what the cam itself would've cost.

Probably not one of my best ideas the way things have gone for me so far but I wanted to give it a solid go on the next one and have some faith that I can finally get it right.

Your T5 has gotta be sweating pretty hard right now

 

[sktchy]

I haven't decided on staying with the t5 yet but I don't think the 4l60e from the other car would like it much either lol

 

[v6buicks]

Daydreaming at work had me thinking about my future cam install again. I've heard a lot of bad news regarding LS7 lifter quality going down the drain. Not sure what that's about, but it put me down a rabbit hole.

I started looking at aftermarket lifters and it made me realize that I have no idea what I need or what to expect when I'm installing them. Comp OE-Rs seem like they would be a good fit with the ST5 cam given the rpm capability, but they sound like they're nearly impossible to get right without rocker adjustment. I heard the Harland Sharp used to make them but had troubles keeping them together. Just for shits an gigs I did some googling. Apparently, nice adjustable 3800 rockers are still on the market by some big Buick fans.

Buick 3800 V6

T&D SportComp shaft rocker arms for small block Chevy. Economical shaft rocker arms in popular ratios

tdmach.com

GEEEEEEEEEZ! That's some cool stuff, but probably too cool for my wallet.

What do you guys know about lifters? Are LS7s still okay? Is that even good enough for me? What about Comp OEs or the ZZP lifters? Those both seem like decent compromises. I have a pushrod length checker and some dummy springs, but I've never used them. I have no idea what I'm up against.

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

The T & D adjustable rocker set up with the beam girdle it is a very nice setup but it is approximately eight hundred bucks and requires valve cover spacers or fabricated valve covers. You can use the Campo ER lifters all you need to do is spend some time with a pushrod length Checker and end up ordering two or three different lengths of the custom cam 5/16 pushrods. You could always look at one of the aftermarket LS offerings as far as lifters are concerned Redline performance and otherwise

 

[v6buicks]

I see. Are you saying that I'm likely to need a few different sizes to make up for the tighter tolerance? Is it not likely that the stock lengths will just check out if I'm running stock deck, unmilled heads, stock rockers, ect?

 

[v6buicks]

Oh I'm dumb. You mean to check and see what I need first and order the push rods accordingly. That makes more sense. Are the adjustable rockers meant to make up for the slight differences without the need for custom lengths then?

 

[GTPpower]

I have t&D's on my car. They are nice for adjusting the preload, but imo, they rob power. Like James said, they require bigger valve covers or a spacer. They are also $900 last I checked, so probably even higher now.

Ls7 lifters are terrible these days. I would switch to Johnson lifters, or Morell.

 

[v6buicks]

I have t&D's on my car. They are nice for adjusting the preload, but imo, they rob power. Like James said, they require bigger valve covers or a spacer. They are also $900 last I checked, so probably even higher now.

Ls7 lifters are terrible these days. I would switch to Johnson lifters, or Morell.

Neat! I'm not considering the T&Ds at all. I just thought it was cool since I hadn't heard of them used in 3800s. It seems like massive overkill for my cheap street car, but I'm curious about how they would rob power? Are they heavy?

Good to know that LS7s still suck. lol I'll have to look into other brands. TBH, I only used Comp as an example because it's what was on ZZPs site. Anything wrong with Comp? It's nice being able to get the sets of 12.

 

[GTPpower]

Neat! I'm not considering the T&Ds at all. I just thought it was cool since I hadn't heard of them used in 3800s. It seems like massive overkill for my cheap street car, but I'm curious about how they would rob power? Are they heavy?

Good to know that LS7s still suck. lol I'll have to look into other brands. TBH, I only used Comp as an example because it's what was on ZZPs site. Anything wrong with Comp? It's nice being able to get the sets of 12.

They are pretty heavy. I haven't actually weighed them compared to stock, but I'm guessing they are similar weight. They are very bulky though. Their moment of inertia is really high, which will eat power.

If you want to run comp oe-r lifters, I think your only realistic option is to get adjustable rockers, or you will have 12 different pushrod lengths, which some people have done. I really don't like comp lifters because they are so picky about preload. Other than that, I think they do fine.

 

[v6buicks]

They are pretty heavy. I haven't actually weighed them compared to stock, but I'm guessing they are similar weight. They are very bulky though. Their moment of inertia is really high, which will eat power.

If you want to run comp oe-r lifters, I think your only realistic option is to get adjustable rockers, or you will have 12 different pushrod lengths, which some people have done. I really don't like comp lifters because they are so picky about preload. Other than that, I think they do fine.

Okay, so you say that Morel or Johnson will work just as well for my car while being a lot simpler to get set-up? I dig the sound of that. I'll have to look into those a little closer.

 

[sktchy]

So your sayin I should dump the zzp lifters I've got sittin then lol.

I know the ls guys around here are big on the Johnsons and they aren't so big on the ls7 lifters. Makes me wonder if they're actually that bad or if there's just one every once in a while and it's enough to give em a bad name. I've seen plenty of successful builds on em and they seem easier to preload but I suppose it isn't worth the gamble.

 

[GTPpower]

I really don't know anything about zzp lifters, but my guess is they are just rebranded parts store lifters. Something like Sealed power or something.

I'm not sure about Morel, but I know ls7 lifters are bad about losing lifter at higher rpms. Johnson lifters are testing way better, which is likely why I will switch my car to them, hopefully yet this winter. (I have ls7's in it now.). I'm just assuming that Morel's are similar to Johnson in that regard.

 

[GTPpower]

Here's some reading material just to see what I'm talking about.

Johnson 2110 vs LS7 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

Generation III Internal Engine - Johnson 2110 vs LS7 - Building a 408. Have a set of LS7 lifters, but considering a better lifter just for peace of mine. Would the 2110's fit that bill? Looking for recommendations. Thanks

ls1tech.com

 

[v6buicks]

$600 for Johnsons I wasn't expecting that. Morels are only $200. I might have to see what people think of them. I'm pretty sure my buddy has them in his cammed LS1. I'll ask him what's up.

 

[v6buicks]

He has regular LS7s, but it seems like the Morels are just a higher quality version of LS7s? I'm not sure if I've ever heard of somebody using Morels in a 3800 and ZZP only sells them in sets of 16. I wonder if there's a reason for that.