3800 I have a lot of cam swap questions

[v6buicks]

I've recently scored a couple deals on parts that I wasn't expecting to install for a while even if I had everything I needed.

Got these for $110 shipped.

And this for $275. It's never been installed!

I already have the modified retainers and fancy valve locks in the car, but I'm a little unsure of what else I'm going to need. It seems like stock LS7 is the best option for lifters, but what about valve springs? I know the LS6 springs will be much too weak for this cam. I see ZZP recommends their 136 or 150lb springs but which one is better for which application?

Then there's the pushrods. Since I'm not planning to install the cam and lifters without L67 head gaskets or ARP studs, I have a few potential variables working on the length. What is the preferred way to check what size I need? I have a length checker tool, but I don't entirely understand how I'm supposed to use it because I never had much of a feel for lifter preload. I's this tool more geared toward solid lifter engines? I've always just torqued my rockers to the torque spec and made sure that the bolt wasn't being turned more than 1.5 turns past zero lash. ?‍ I figure that a little machinist's blue on the valve tip and checking the contact area with stock pushrods would give me a clearer indication of what needs to happen.

I'm probably just leaving my balance shaft in the block and removing the gear. I have a cam bearing install tool so I'd have no problem installing the 440 bearings clocked 180 out, but I also have no intentions of pulling this engine out of the car until it blows. I don't see a proper balance shaft delete happening in the car. Does the gear come off with a puller? I've never removed one, and it's already gone in my spare engine.

I have this thin oil pump cover, so that's cool. Does anybody know the secret to ZZP's "extra thick" timing cover gasket? I feel like I've already been screwed by their "high flow" fuel filter being one of the cheapos from Rock Auto. Sure they did their testing, but can they just tell me the part number since it's not actually theirs? I assume that this gasket is the same story. Is it anything special? Is it a certain brand or material? I currently have a metal gasket in there, but their picture shows a paper one which I imagine is in fact thicker. lol

I think that's it for now, but I'm sure some answers will spark more questions.

Click to read more...

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

i properly machine the timing gears to fit the slightly different US market crank and use OE thickness pump covers and just an OE and the blue steel felpro T cover gaskets

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

JP timing chain users....

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=4752021&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1 Might want to get your tools ready.

www.thechicagogarage.com

fingerbang the cam gear bore with crocus cloth esp near the keyway where it deforms the ID and you should be able to install the cam gear at least ha;lfway onto the shoulder before it gets tight.

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

checking final dimensions for timing sprocket alignment


looks like the 442 will be going under the knife at some point soon...

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

timing chain question

Exactly what i needed to hear.. thank you.. I will just leave it as is with the L26 timing set.

www.thechicagogarage.com

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

My Turbo Monte Build for 2011

:noes: once i got it all apart found his shit was junk so i put it at the curb

www.thechicagogarage.com

take crank gear to machine shop and have em machine the backside 45* chambfer till it's 1/32nd past the tits of the keyway's, crocus cloth the hell outta the bore ID for easier install, slide it onto the crank using the oem crank sproket to drive it on, be carefull with the keyway, i leave the OEM crank sprocket on and use another on top of that (youll have 3 sprockets on) and tq the crank bolt tight to ensure the crank gear is fully against the crank shoulder
i have a rig for holding the cam timing gear still to do this, but youll crocus cloth the fuck outta the cam gear bore so it'll go one easier, install the cam gear without the chain and Tq the cam bolt, then using the block face as a register point measure the block to chain tooth face distance of both the crank and cam gears while prying the crank/cam through endplay to find the endplay min/max distance. add half the endplay to the min distance of both then subtract, thats the distance the cam gear is sticking out farther than the crank gear making them out of alignment.
pull off cam gear and drop off to have it ground down -block/stone the front face of the cam gear to ensure the face sits completly flat on the magnetic chuck...the alignment dot typically has a raised edge from the machining process.

ive had to machine off between .022 and .030 off the back of the cam gear on all 5 sets ive worked on to bring em into dead alignment with both the crank and the cam in the middle of their endplay ranges. then the chain will be straight and both rows of the chain will have load on it as opposed to most of the load being on the outter/inner chain row on the crank/cam sprokets resectively. you dont need a ground oil pump cover only two paper GM front cover gaskets to have more than enough chain to pump clearance

have fun, good luck

 

[10sec]

James to the rescue, so glad he's back.

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

modify the windage tray openings and knife edge em.

use a full bead of rtv on the pan side (ripples in the sealing surface caused by the pan stamping process) and at least use sealing beads on the top near the front and rear cover surfaces

you can see the chain area and both end slots opened up to better strip oil from the rotating assembly.
don't mind the cyl 4 scraper, its nice to have for sure but most don't want to put forth the time and effort

 

[v6buicks]

Huh. I had no idea that the Ausie parts were any different once you got that deep. Using a normal gasket certainly would be nice.

Why the hell haven't I heard of anybody having these issues?! I'm getting tired of asking for help with this stuff. It might be time to get that mini lathe.

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

finished porting and modifying the F body oil filter neck.
mostly just passage cleanup, some outer casting cleanup (make it look nicer) and the filter bypass deleted.

as you can see it clears the OD SFI dampener without the spacer plate


also started with the cyl 4 crank scraper...dug my jig out of the backyard bin....and by jig i mean block skirt that i cut off a junk motor lol

its kinda blurry but you can make out the modified windage tray openings...

well Al and I got some more shit done...didnt finish the heads but we did finish the pan modz n button up the bottom end.

advanced down the block had the Specter/SPI pan in stock 65$ out the door part number GMP11B

single layer steel

welded in the cyl 4 scraper and since our primary oil return is via the timing area i dented and folded the front nose for a more direct path below the windage tray and down into the pan.

one nice thing is this pan would make it easy to fab a large volume pan.

130$ and weld the bottom onto the other with a simple extension on the pickup tube...thinkin about it. definitely getting another one for the TR....if any car needs it the flaming turd does...

here you can see the drainback and the scraper with the jig installed.

the Timing oil drain path and chain scraper through the windage tray opening

you can see the longer tray slots actually open across both rods and most of the counterweights. sealed the shit outta it and screwed it down....

 

[v6buicks]

A lot just happened here and now I'm glad I waited until morning + coffee to respond.

Let me pull all this together and get some perspective. Is the machining you mention in post #2 just an alternative to the thick gasket and machined oil pump cover? Leave it to ZZP to just sell more parts to fix a problem that they could easily fix for us with the parts and tools they already have... Sounds like a classic case of fixing the symptom and not the problem. Anyway, can this machining be done by just using a stock crank gear for reference? Is the machining done by just taking a bit of material off on the oil pump side of the gear or are two birds killed with one stone by doing the machining you talk about in posts #4, 5, and 6?

I guess I have another thing to measure and play with on my spare engine before it becomes a coffee table!

 

[Mr_Roboto]

in4 results. That seems like quite a bit of stick how is coil bind on these guys? I realize displacement per cylinder isn't huge and bore/stroke is pretty long but you got enough head to rev that? How high will she go?

Asking those questions ignorant of how 3800s do with this stuff.

Get a length checker only way to be sure

 

[v6buicks]

in4 results. That seems like quite a bit of stick how is coil bind on these guys? I realize displacement per cylinder isn't huge and bore/stroke is pretty long but you got enough head to rev that? How high will she go?

Asking those questions ignorant of how 3800s do with this stuff.

Get a length checker only way to be sure

From my understanding, this cam would do a lot better with ported heads, but I'm not dropping money on heads until I have a suspension and rear end that's worth a damn. I got the cam mostly for the sound anyway because who the hell wants a Camaro making stock cam, open down pipe, v6 noises even with a turbo? lol

As for spring fitment, I planned ahead for this a bit when I bought the LS6 springs. I didn't need the more expensive modified retainers for stock lift, but I will for this cam. I've never heard of anybody needing their 3800 heads machined for big lift, but I'm still a newb.

I have a length checker and I've been reading articles about how to get this done. It looks like I'll be needing some dummy springs too so that I don't destroy the length checker with 150# springs. It looks like it'll be a pretty easy job if I follow one of the countless videos out there.

 

[sktchy]

 

[GTPpower]

I really like the 136# springs that zzp sells. I think they are comp springs.

Ls7 lifters are definitely the easiest, but beware their quality is really bad right now.

My buddy runs a st5, and I'm pretty sure he has stock length pushrods, but definitely measure. Zzp has a video on how to do it on a 3800.

On my engine, I have the crank gear machined, thick gasket, and milled pump cover. It's definitely overkill. That thick gasket is zzp's creation. I guess it must be a lot more profitable to sell a thicker gasket than to machine all the crank sprockets. You can usually just take a stock sprocket to a machine shop and tell them to match the chamfer.

 

[bs009]

I've heard that PAC springs are the way to go, but I'm sure some of the others out there will do just fine too. I'm planning on running a set of the PAC 150's when I finally do my cam swap.
There is a max lift with the stock heads somewhere around .540 I think with modded retainers. I've heard the St5 is going to be fine though without cutting down the guides.

If you have the time and patience, a DIY head porting job can return some pretty decent gains without a ton of effort

 

[v6buicks]

I really like the 136# springs that zzp sells. I think they are comp springs.

Ls7 lifters are definitely the easiest, but beware their quality is really bad right now.

My buddy runs a st5, and I'm pretty sure he has stock length pushrods, but definitely measure. Zzp has a video on how to do it on a 3800.

On my engine, I have the crank gear machined, thick gasket, and milled pump cover. It's definitely overkill. That thick gasket is zzp's creation. I guess it must be a lot more profitable to sell a thicker gasket than to machine all the crank sprockets. You can usually just take a stock sprocket to a machine shop and tell them to match the chamfer.

Uh oh. I forgot about the LS7 lifter crisis. What makes the Comp or ZZP lifters more difficult? Is there just less travel in those and less margin for error or something?

Good to know about the push rods. I'll measure, but I assume that stock rods would be too weak for those valve springs? Should I go with the standard hardened rods? Thicker?

The chamfer deal is good to know as well. I'll see if my local engine shop can do that for me. I like my metal timing cover gaskets.

 

[GTPpower]

Uh oh. I forgot about the LS7 lifter crisis. What makes the Comp or ZZP lifters more difficult? Is there just less travel in those and less margin for error or something?

Good to know about the push rods. I'll measure, but I assume that stock rods would be too weak for those valve springs? Should I go with the standard hardened rods? Thicker?

The chamfer deal is good to know as well. I'll see if my local engine shop can do that for me. I like my metal timing cover gaskets.

I'm fairly certain zzp lifters are just parts store ls7 style. Comp oe-r lifters are super picky about preload. You basically need adjustable rockers to run those.

I have ls7 lifters in my car, but I'm going to switch to something better that the ls crowd uses. Something like Johnson or Morel.

Stock rods are pretty strong, but they might deflect some. I used Manton pushrods, but I don't remember their specs offhand. I think zzp's 3/8" set is pretty good.

 

[Kizzlebizz]

Ls7 lifters are definitely the easiest, but beware their quality is really bad right now.

You ain't lying. I bought brand new LS7 delco lifters and have a bad one right off the rip. My buddy happened to get a set that doesn't tap.

 

[Turbocharged400sbc]

you dont need adjustable rockerts with comp OER with the cup style retainer that holds the plunger spring under higher preload (prevents pumpup)
they have about .030 plunge, just not the .090 of the OE....so you just need a pushrod length checker for the small block ford and order proper length pushrods.


high strength thick wall 5/16ths pushrods from comp/others should be fine for 90% of builds, the additional mass of the 3/8" tapered pushrods arent worth the extra cost for what are relativly light spring pressures (compared to LS guys seat/open pressures

 

[sktchy]

While we're on the subject of cams, how much lift can you run on the stock heads before needing to do machine work?

 

[GTPpower]

Somewhere around.535" is about the max recommended if you have miller retainers and viton valve seals.

 

[v6buicks]

Somewhere around.535" is about the max recommended if you have miller retainers and viton valve seals.

Soooo I can't use this cam with my stock heads?

 

[GTPpower]

Soooo I can't use this cam with my stock heads?

You are probably still ok. If you can though, it would be a good idea to measure retainer to seal clearance.

 

[Mr_Roboto]

don't you have 1.9 rockers though? That is why you check clearances.