Exhaust temps way too high
- Thread starter razors4us
- Start date
Here's an hptuners change log. As far as I know there is no way for anyone to see "who did the tune" unless you tell us or tell him
And by law since tuners are a contractor/service person working on your vehicle, anything they do belongs to you - just like if someone works on the plumbing in your bathroom
Im not saying it is wrong but I am skeptical of 10 degrees and 10.X AFR at 5 psi when it should be 20 degrees and 12.0
And by law since tuners are a contractor/service person working on your vehicle, anything they do belongs to you - just like if someone works on the plumbing in your bathroom
Im not saying it is wrong but I am skeptical of 10 degrees and 10.X AFR at 5 psi when it should be 20 degrees and 12.0
Here's some more info maybe to anyone finding this off Google that I used as a reference when tuning.
This is a stock tune from a 2011 Cadillac CTS-V with the LSA 6.2. This engine has a small supercharger and runs 10-11 psi of boost. It was available with 100k mile warranty if you paid more and GM had to figure people would fill it up on 87 in the real world. These engines are supposedly 9.2:1 compression but thats what my LQ4 measured at when I miced it.
Now they also have aggressive controls and compensators for engine temperature, intake temp, etc so generally when tuning an aftermarket setup without all those controls people may go a little easier.
But anyway here is the High Octane timing map. This is used any time someone is "on the throttle" over a typical voltage or maybe over 5% TPS lets say, I don't know without looking it up for this specific pcm. But this is used any time the engine is "under load" and there is positive throttle.
I put notes on it in paint.
I can also see this engine will not even turn the fan on until 210 degrees, and even then not much
So from the factory, in a 4k+ lb car, while running 11 PSI of boost, we can see GM is not scared to keep timing over 20 degrees.
Here is the IAT adjuster
So in the real world once you get 140-150F intake temp the computer starts pulling timing. This is not likely unless driving hard in hot ambient temps.
Here is the engine control temp table
So in the real world if the fan doesnt come on until 210, you are probably driving around at that 212-230 number in stock configuration. This is why factory forced induction cars pick up so much from tuning and basic mods. If you can thermostat/fan temp this car to hang out at 190 all the time, then you get 4 degrees timing back with no other changes.
So I looked at these factors and said GM plans for 20-21 degrees of timing with 10-11 psi. You can usually keep IATs under that number, but engine temps are commonly up to where they pull timing, so they probably plan on a real world combo of 15-17 degrees with 10-11 psi.
This is where we get back to the 14 psi and 14 degrees of timing formula. You can see its pretty in line with the factory if you add a few psi and take away a few degrees.
There is no situation where the factory is running 5 psi and 10 degrees. Its like 5 psi and 20-25 degrees.
Fuel is much harder to guess from the tune alone without a wideband, but the factory is very lean for the EPA.
We can see that the LSA doesn't go into power enrichment (extra fuel for acceleration) until 5000 rpm. This can change with other adder/subtractors. So if you floor the car you are typically at 14.7:1 until this RPM.
This is the Power Enrich table, which controls how much to richen the mixture once you are in that mode
This ratio is stoichiometric / that value
So this engine will richen between
14.7 / 1.251 = 11.76:1 AFR
14.7 / 1.332 = 11.0:1 AFR
But once again you don't get that until 5,000 rpm.
I hope this is helpful. A lot of the turbo LS stuff is not magical you are just replicating what the factory accomplished and it is safe (the LSA has standard gen IV rods and pistons not forged) as long as you comply with similar temperature and IAT controls.
This is a stock tune from a 2011 Cadillac CTS-V with the LSA 6.2. This engine has a small supercharger and runs 10-11 psi of boost. It was available with 100k mile warranty if you paid more and GM had to figure people would fill it up on 87 in the real world. These engines are supposedly 9.2:1 compression but thats what my LQ4 measured at when I miced it.
Now they also have aggressive controls and compensators for engine temperature, intake temp, etc so generally when tuning an aftermarket setup without all those controls people may go a little easier.
But anyway here is the High Octane timing map. This is used any time someone is "on the throttle" over a typical voltage or maybe over 5% TPS lets say, I don't know without looking it up for this specific pcm. But this is used any time the engine is "under load" and there is positive throttle.
I put notes on it in paint.
I can also see this engine will not even turn the fan on until 210 degrees, and even then not much
So from the factory, in a 4k+ lb car, while running 11 PSI of boost, we can see GM is not scared to keep timing over 20 degrees.
Here is the IAT adjuster
So in the real world once you get 140-150F intake temp the computer starts pulling timing. This is not likely unless driving hard in hot ambient temps.
Here is the engine control temp table
So in the real world if the fan doesnt come on until 210, you are probably driving around at that 212-230 number in stock configuration. This is why factory forced induction cars pick up so much from tuning and basic mods. If you can thermostat/fan temp this car to hang out at 190 all the time, then you get 4 degrees timing back with no other changes.
So I looked at these factors and said GM plans for 20-21 degrees of timing with 10-11 psi. You can usually keep IATs under that number, but engine temps are commonly up to where they pull timing, so they probably plan on a real world combo of 15-17 degrees with 10-11 psi.
This is where we get back to the 14 psi and 14 degrees of timing formula. You can see its pretty in line with the factory if you add a few psi and take away a few degrees.
There is no situation where the factory is running 5 psi and 10 degrees. Its like 5 psi and 20-25 degrees.
Fuel is much harder to guess from the tune alone without a wideband, but the factory is very lean for the EPA.
We can see that the LSA doesn't go into power enrichment (extra fuel for acceleration) until 5000 rpm. This can change with other adder/subtractors. So if you floor the car you are typically at 14.7:1 until this RPM.
This is the Power Enrich table, which controls how much to richen the mixture once you are in that mode
This ratio is stoichiometric / that value
So this engine will richen between
14.7 / 1.251 = 11.76:1 AFR
14.7 / 1.332 = 11.0:1 AFR
But once again you don't get that until 5,000 rpm.
I hope this is helpful. A lot of the turbo LS stuff is not magical you are just replicating what the factory accomplished and it is safe (the LSA has standard gen IV rods and pistons not forged) as long as you comply with similar temperature and IAT controls.
You guys are awesome man. I'm definitely going to be coming back to this post for a long time. I went for a long drive today in the truck(3+ hours) and it didn't hiccup once. The truck runs fantastic aside from killing the damn wideband so often. I'm honestly starting to doubt the controller. A few questions I have to ask that I might be doing wrong. The wideband is wired to key on power, but it cuts power during cranking. Do you think it could be killing the sensor faster because it cools off while cranking and suddenly heats back up when the engine starts? Also-. Should I allow it to heat all the way up before starting it? It's like 30 seconds before it starts giving a reading. Am I the reason my sensor keeps dying? Due to being a dumbass and not allowing it to warm up properly before starting the engine? It always seems to die the same way every time. It will be fine for the first week or so on a brand new sensor, then suddenly it will start bouncing all over the place while driving. Randomly showing super lean then super rich and yada yada. Then it will just slam either super lean(22.5) or super rich (9.0) and after a minute or two it will give an error code e8. It's an innovate lc-2. I always buy the same sensor every time (upstream sensor for an 01 vw Passat). Am I buying a shitty sensor? I know countless people that use the same sensor with no issues on their lc-2.......
alright. got a log... and wouldnt ya know it, half the damn sensors didnt record for some damn reason. this log shows 1 of 2 issues im having i guess. first and foremost: every time i disconnect the o2 sensors to start logging to correct fuel- it is a pain in the ass to get it to log all of the sensors i ask it to. as soon as i plug them back in it logs everything just fine..... secondly: somewhere around 15 minutes 53 second mark, youll see the force motor shoot to 90% why? fucker shifts so damn hard when it does that! i cannot for the life of me figure out whats causing it to do that. is it temp related? is it some sort of abuse mode triggered? i dont understand. its irritating as hell though. i can post a copy of the tune as well if someone would like to look it over. dont mind the ve table if it looks funny to you, im still getting it dialed in.
Honestly man there is a reason everyone has went holley efi. You don't need "licenses" to your own tune, anyone can open it, anyone can help you. The boost control, wideband, everything is all integrated. Tuning it is 100x simpler.
That being said...
Thank you for posting the log. Where I would start with your description and the log is with electrical problems. If you are having multiple sensors perform inconsistently, the trans do weird things...this usually says to me faulty power or ground.
Here's a checklist:
I do not solder any engine bay connections. In my experience, especially if you have high heat, the solder will crack and the connection will break.
1. Check battery voltage at battery
2. Disconnect the coil packs, crank and check at starter terminal
3. With packs disconnected, check at back of alternator
4. If your alternator charge cable is soldered, redo the terminations with a good crimps/preferable ratcheting compression - I have had so many problems on cars Ive tuned with broken soldered power wires in the engine compartment
5. If you use a bus bar or power distribution point in the engine compartment, check voltage, clean any connections underneath - if they are soldered redo them with crimps
6. Check all grounds by touching the positive side of the battery with the red lead from the voltmeter and then put the black side to each ground point - you should have a big cable going from the battery to the engine - check it at the engine. You should have a smaller cable going from the battery to the chassis, check it at the chassis. You should have another cable going from the engine (preferably the alternator mount) to the frame, check it at both ends. You should have a strap going from the back of one cylinder head to the firewall, check it at both ends. If any are soldered redo with crimps. You may just find a single corroded ground end is causing this.
7. The PCM should be powered by a relay. Check the voltage before and after the relay with the key on. You can key the relay with your original ignition 12v but check this with the key on and while running. If any of these are fluctuating and the PCM is getting variable voltage all the sensors will stutter.
8. Double check your PCM harness for any obvious cuts/scrapes that cause exposed wires.
Tune Questions
Electric fans are disabled in your tune. How are you controlling them? The PCM is always the best way unless you are running a mechanical.
The timing in this tune is bizarrely low, I don't understand
Here's some things I would start changing....take my advice with a grain of salt and do one thing at a time to rule out issues
Abuse mode is currently set to 1400 rpm. I would raise that to 7000 and speed < 1 mph.
You still have default values for max in gear torque, which can also prompt the trans to enter abuse mode. I would set these all to the max of 640.
Your knock sensors are essentially disabled through the high threshold they need to work, but then the spark retard they do is super aggress
That being said...
Thank you for posting the log. Where I would start with your description and the log is with electrical problems. If you are having multiple sensors perform inconsistently, the trans do weird things...this usually says to me faulty power or ground.
Here's a checklist:
I do not solder any engine bay connections. In my experience, especially if you have high heat, the solder will crack and the connection will break.
1. Check battery voltage at battery
2. Disconnect the coil packs, crank and check at starter terminal
3. With packs disconnected, check at back of alternator
4. If your alternator charge cable is soldered, redo the terminations with a good crimps/preferable ratcheting compression - I have had so many problems on cars Ive tuned with broken soldered power wires in the engine compartment
5. If you use a bus bar or power distribution point in the engine compartment, check voltage, clean any connections underneath - if they are soldered redo them with crimps
6. Check all grounds by touching the positive side of the battery with the red lead from the voltmeter and then put the black side to each ground point - you should have a big cable going from the battery to the engine - check it at the engine. You should have a smaller cable going from the battery to the chassis, check it at the chassis. You should have another cable going from the engine (preferably the alternator mount) to the frame, check it at both ends. You should have a strap going from the back of one cylinder head to the firewall, check it at both ends. If any are soldered redo with crimps. You may just find a single corroded ground end is causing this.
7. The PCM should be powered by a relay. Check the voltage before and after the relay with the key on. You can key the relay with your original ignition 12v but check this with the key on and while running. If any of these are fluctuating and the PCM is getting variable voltage all the sensors will stutter.
8. Double check your PCM harness for any obvious cuts/scrapes that cause exposed wires.
Tune Questions
Electric fans are disabled in your tune. How are you controlling them? The PCM is always the best way unless you are running a mechanical.
The timing in this tune is bizarrely low, I don't understand
Here's some things I would start changing....take my advice with a grain of salt and do one thing at a time to rule out issues
Abuse mode is currently set to 1400 rpm. I would raise that to 7000 and speed < 1 mph.
You still have default values for max in gear torque, which can also prompt the trans to enter abuse mode. I would set these all to the max of 640.
Your knock sensors are essentially disabled through the high threshold they need to work, but then the spark retard they do is super aggress
Ignore the duplicate Max torque picture above
Here is your high octane timing table
Heres one from a pump gas turbo 6.0
This is going to get overly dorky and technical but if you are using the stock PCM it doesnt support injectors over 125/127lbs/hr, so if you have injectors bigger than that then the tune has to be "scaled" which means everything is a compromise. This means on the spark and fuel table The Cylinder Airmass column is a percentage of actual...in your case the read value is 83% of actual so you are going to run a lower timing figure in each row than a non-scale tune.
Here's a needle-dick combination of the two you could start with - copy and paste this into the high and low table
You are tipping into power enrichment way too fast in my opinion, this would be like having the secondaries open on a carb at the lightest throttle
I would start by setting those all at 50 for Hot and Cold. Otherwise you are just dumping full 11:1 AFR fuel in under normal driving all the time
Your tune takes the timing to basically zero with any kind of air temps so you need to monitor these
I don't have more time to look right now, but it looks like the 4l80E is not tuned at all in your tune. For example the full throttle 1-2 shift speed is 25.
And 5200 rpm shift speed. These are all stock values. Was this done on a dyno or this is a mail order base tune?
Trans abuse is set to enabled
I opened a stock 02 2500 6.0 file I have an confirm the trans tune is all stock
Here is your high octane timing table
Heres one from a pump gas turbo 6.0
This is going to get overly dorky and technical but if you are using the stock PCM it doesnt support injectors over 125/127lbs/hr, so if you have injectors bigger than that then the tune has to be "scaled" which means everything is a compromise. This means on the spark and fuel table The Cylinder Airmass column is a percentage of actual...in your case the read value is 83% of actual so you are going to run a lower timing figure in each row than a non-scale tune.
Here's a needle-dick combination of the two you could start with - copy and paste this into the high and low table
24 | 21.01099 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 26.98901 | 33.01099 | 38.68132 | 39.47253 | 39.12088 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 |
24 | 21.01099 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 26.98901 | 33.01099 | 38.54945 | 39.2967 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 |
24 | 21.01099 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 26.98901 | 33.36264 | 38.26374 | 39.03297 | 38.68132 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 |
24 | 21.01099 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 26.98901 | 30.81319 | 35.73626 | 36.48352 | 37.18681 | 37.67033 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 |
22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 26.85714 | 30.98901 | 35.03297 | 34.85714 | 35.56044 | 37.01099 | 37.97802 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 | 38.98901 |
22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 27.18681 | 30.98901 | 32.52747 | 34.98901 | 36 | 37.01099 | 37.01099 | 37.71429 | 37.71429 | 37.49451 | 37.18681 | 36.83516 | 36.52747 | 37.42857 | 37.42857 | 37.45055 | 37.45055 | 37.45055 | 37.45055 | 37.45055 |
22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 27.16484 | 28.57143 | 30.72527 | 33.01099 | 34.98901 | 36 | 36 | 36.94505 | 36.85714 | 36.61538 | 36.30769 | 36.08791 | 36.08791 | 36.43956 | 36.46154 | 36.46154 | 36.46154 | 36.46154 | 36.46154 | 36.46154 |
22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 25.58242 | 27.12088 | 29.40659 | 30.46154 | 32.26374 | 34.85714 | 35.58242 | 35.75824 | 35.62637 | 35.31868 | 35.05495 | 34.98901 | 35.31868 | 36.1978 | 36.1978 | 36.1978 | 36.1978 | 36.1978 | 36.1978 | 36.1978 |
22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 24.21978 | 25.01099 | 27.47253 | 28.61538 | 30.50549 | 33.14286 | 33.89011 | 35.03297 | 34.81319 | 34.46154 | 34.17582 | 34.17582 | 34.7033 | 35.93407 | 35.95604 | 35.95604 | 35.95604 | 35.95604 | 35.95604 | 35.95604 |
22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 24 | 24.79121 | 27.91209 | 30.98901 | 32.65934 | 33.49451 | 33.62637 | 34.32967 | 33.84615 | 33.42857 | 33.2967 | 33.71429 | 34.98901 | 34.98901 | 34.98901 | 34.98901 | 34.98901 | 34.98901 | 34.98901 |
22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 22.98901 | 24 | 24.79121 | 26.98901 | 26.98901 | 30.02198 | 31.03297 | 30.98901 | 32 | 32.28571 | 31.53846 | 31.97802 | 32.02198 | 32.98901 | 32.98901 | 32.98901 | 32.98901 | 32.98901 | 32.98901 | 32.98901 |
19.12088 | 20.04396 | 21.05495 | 20.04396 | 21.01099 | 21.01099 | 21.97802 | 22.98901 | 25.01099 | 25.01099 | 26.98901 | 28 | 28 | 28 | 28.61538 | 28.30769 | 27.91209 | 28.52747 | 30.50549 | 30.54945 | 30.59341 | 30.63736 | 30.63736 | 30.63736 | 30.63736 |
18.06593 | 18.94505 | 18.94505 | 18.98901 | 19.20879 | 19.07692 | 19.78022 | 20.30769 | 21.62637 | 22.54945 | 24 | 25.01099 | 25.31868 | 25.31868 | 26.32967 | 26.50549 | 26.50549 | 26.50549 | 27.91209 | 27.91209 | 27.93407 | 27.95604 | 27.95604 | 27.95604 | 27.95604 |
17.42857 | 17.42857 | 18.41758 | 18.46154 | 19.07692 | 19.03297 | 19.03297 | 19.03297 | 20.04396 | 20.46154 | 21.01099 | 21.97802 | 23.16484 | 22.59341 | 23.86813 | 24.08791 | 24.43956 | 25.23077 | 26.98901 | 27.01099 | 27.01099 | 27.03297 | 27.03297 | 27.03297 | 27.03297 |
16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 | 21 |
16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 17.51648 | 17 | 17 | 17 | 17 | 17 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 |
13.71429 | 13.71429 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.73626 | 15.73626 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 20 |
12.7033 | 12.7033 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 |
12.7033 | 12.7033 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 | 18 |
12.7033 | 12.7033 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 |
12.7033 | 12.7033 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 13.71429 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 | 16 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 |
11.69231 | 11.69231 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 12.7033 | 14.72527 | 14.72527 | 15.56044 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 | 14 |
You are tipping into power enrichment way too fast in my opinion, this would be like having the secondaries open on a carb at the lightest throttle
I would start by setting those all at 50 for Hot and Cold. Otherwise you are just dumping full 11:1 AFR fuel in under normal driving all the time
Your tune takes the timing to basically zero with any kind of air temps so you need to monitor these
I don't have more time to look right now, but it looks like the 4l80E is not tuned at all in your tune. For example the full throttle 1-2 shift speed is 25.
And 5200 rpm shift speed. These are all stock values. Was this done on a dyno or this is a mail order base tune?
Trans abuse is set to enabled
I opened a stock 02 2500 6.0 file I have an confirm the trans tune is all stock
This is 100% just a base tune so I can get the ve table sorted lol. I asked for it to be as absolutely safe as possible. I've blown too many ringlands off and bent too many rods on previous engines because I was too confident. The wife will remove my testicles with a rusty spoon if I blow it up again
Would the tune itself make the force motor to randomly just shoot for 90% at random times? I literally just got home from a log trip and I didn't make it more than 3 miles before it slammed to 90% and started shifting neck breakingly hard. The only way around the extreme slams is to keep the converter from locking during the shift via pedaling it lol. I'm aware the trans tune is stock, I did that intentionally trying to hunt down this damn shifting issue lol. Seriously though, you are awesome. I appreciate the insight!
Yes the trans tune will do that when it enters abuse mode, or encounters way more torque than expected.
There is no real way to sort the VE table when the trans is going to want to shift at 3000 rpm due to those MPH expectations.
Also VE will change when you give it real timing values. The holley system does this all automatically, once you use it once its almost hilarious.
You can break pistons/ring lands due to being too rich. Does this engine have stock ring gap?
I can post good trans values but I would need tire height and rear gear
There is no real way to sort the VE table when the trans is going to want to shift at 3000 rpm due to those MPH expectations.
Also VE will change when you give it real timing values. The holley system does this all automatically, once you use it once its almost hilarious.
You can break pistons/ring lands due to being too rich. Does this engine have stock ring gap?
I can post good trans values but I would need tire height and rear gear
do you think if i put 50 in all the tables for power enrichment that it will smack it with a ton of fuel every time i get above 50% throttle? i did that with the last tune and it seemed like it would hit a wall unless i gave it a bit more throttle and then suddenly it was super rich and doing weird stuff haha. my tires are 285/45/22, rear end is 4.10s if im not mistaken. its what it came with factory yes, stock ring gap, the engine was in a car previous to my truck with an lsa on it, made like 670 at the tires in the car. and yes, if i could afford the holley it would already be in there lol. i have hp tuners, so im using it until i get fed up with it i guess 
funny thing i keep seeing is that it just RANDOMLY goes to 90% with the force motor. and its always while its idling.... never the same temperature, no variable ever changes, it just decides to slam to 90%. this last time it did it, i was idling at a red light.... and now that i start looking harder at the log, it decided to log short term fuel trims this time... so the log is shit for ve tuning lol. fuck i am dumb. im just trying to ball on a budget man. i cant afford to pay a tuner to do this. i just cant. if i dont learn this, the truck will just collect dust
funny thing i keep seeing is that it just RANDOMLY goes to 90% with the force motor. and its always while its idling.... never the same temperature, no variable ever changes, it just decides to slam to 90%. this last time it did it, i was idling at a red light.... and now that i start looking harder at the log, it decided to log short term fuel trims this time... so the log is shit for ve tuning lol. fuck i am dumb. im just trying to ball on a budget man. i cant afford to pay a tuner to do this. i just cant. if i dont learn this, the truck will just collect dust
do you think if i put 50 in all the tables for power enrichment that it will smack it with a ton of fuel every time i get above 50% throttle? i did that with the last tune and it seemed like it would hit a wall unless i gave it a bit more throttle and then suddenly it was super rich and doing weird stuff haha. my tires are 285/45/22, rear end is 4.10s if im not mistaken. its what it came with factory yes, stock ring gap, the engine was in a car previous to my truck with an lsa on it, made like 670 at the tires in the car. and yes, if i could afford the holley it would already be in there lol. i have hp tuners, so im using it until i get fed up with it i guess
funny thing i keep seeing is that it just RANDOMLY goes to 90% with the force motor. and its always while its idling.... never the same temperature, no variable ever changes, it just decides to slam to 90%. this last time it did it, i was idling at a red light.... and now that i start looking harder at the log, it decided to log short term fuel trims this time... so the log is shit for ve tuning lol. fuck i am dumb. im just trying to ball on a budget man. i cant afford to pay a tuner to do this. i just cant. if i dont learn this, the truck will just collect dust
Generally when running in speed density where there is no MAF signal going to the computer and the transmission is seeing more torque than it expects it needs to all be tuned and all the different shift tables for hot Cruise performance etc need to be the same. That is the only way to eliminate the weird behavior like that.
Anytime it enters abuse mode it will mess with force motor current and that can just be from any number of weird random factors for the reasons I mentioned above.
I will post info for transmission tunes tonight or tomorrow and why I do each thing.
At a minimum you need to completely disable abuse mode in the engine torque management and the transmission torque management.
So heres how I do a 4L60/4L80 transmission tune in hptuners to start
I open the blue cat transmission tool (use google)
I go to tirerack or google and find the tire height
I switch all the values to the vehicle
Transmission Select the 4l80e
RPM Go to youtube and watch a richard holdener video of the cam you have and see where peak power is, put it about there because you need to the lead the shift a little
Final gear ratio
Tire tire height from tirerack
Idle 850rpm for SS2
Stall stall rpm of converter leave alone for stock
Min RPM minimum rpm the lockup converter can engage
Min Gear minimum gear lockup converter can engage - I always do 3, but 2 is also possible for more mpgs
Accel Gear minimum gear the converter can lockup in during acceleration, if you have a stock converter leave this at 4
WOT gear this is on 5 to disable this - you can use this in 3 if you have a billet triple disc and the manufacturer dares you to try it
I click Export
I put the Speedometer Cal selection on the correct PCM this is a gen III
I go into HPtuners and put this information under Speedo
Next I set the Shift Tables to 4 speed and click Copy Table
Then I go into Hptuners to the trans section and click Shift Scheduling
To eliminate any funky behavior from the transmission when it is operating with a different camshaft, a turbo, speed density, different mounts, different tire heights, and all these things it doesnt expect I am going to make the following tables the same
I do this by posting in the bluecat data
Normal select and paste
Performance copy and paste
Cruise
Hot
Then I go back to bluecat and click Next to get to the WOT shift table
I copy this and put it in all three of these
I open the blue cat transmission tool (use google)
I go to tirerack or google and find the tire height
I switch all the values to the vehicle
Transmission Select the 4l80e
RPM Go to youtube and watch a richard holdener video of the cam you have and see where peak power is, put it about there because you need to the lead the shift a little
Final gear ratio
Tire tire height from tirerack
Idle 850rpm for SS2
Stall stall rpm of converter leave alone for stock
Min RPM minimum rpm the lockup converter can engage
Min Gear minimum gear lockup converter can engage - I always do 3, but 2 is also possible for more mpgs
Accel Gear minimum gear the converter can lockup in during acceleration, if you have a stock converter leave this at 4
WOT gear this is on 5 to disable this - you can use this in 3 if you have a billet triple disc and the manufacturer dares you to try it
I click Export
I put the Speedometer Cal selection on the correct PCM this is a gen III
I go into HPtuners and put this information under Speedo
Next I set the Shift Tables to 4 speed and click Copy Table
Then I go into Hptuners to the trans section and click Shift Scheduling
To eliminate any funky behavior from the transmission when it is operating with a different camshaft, a turbo, speed density, different mounts, different tire heights, and all these things it doesnt expect I am going to make the following tables the same
I do this by posting in the bluecat data
Normal select and paste
Performance copy and paste
Cruise
Hot
Then I go back to bluecat and click Next to get to the WOT shift table
I copy this and put it in all three of these
In the case of this tune these are about twice stock
Then I go back to bluecat and click next and get the WOT RPM (or you can do this manually its just three cells)
Then I put that in all three of these
Rest of the trans tune
General tab
Confirm the trans type, in stock vehicle the PRNDL should be left at PRNDL. This refers to whether the shifter sends an electrical signal for these selections. In swaps this can be set to PN only or disabled if the shifter is not connected. Confirm gear ratios (only really need to do this where a car has been changed from a 4l60 to a 4l80).
Manual
Do nothing
Shift General
These are the values Matt Happel uses with success. THey also work for me and Im not trying to fix what isnt broken. The max pressure on the upshift tab under the shift scheduling section is set to 96, so the highest values the transmission will reach are the 96 column.
Shift pressures
There is a lot to modify on this page. The stock tune allows constant slippage of the torque converter. Changing to these values will disable this constant slipping. I will briefly discuss
By changing the Steady State Adapt Counters, particularly the Up Clutch Slip and the Up TCC Slip you are disabling the computers ability to do a controlled slip of the torque converter. This is very hard on the torque converter but done from the factory for NVH, smooth idle takeoffs, towing, and other reasons. If you are putting double factory power through the converter and slipping it it is extremely hard on it per my understanding. Watch Cameron Powers on the sloppy radio show he discusses this.
There are too many values here to copy and paste so I will post this example tune.
Then I go back to bluecat and click next and get the WOT RPM (or you can do this manually its just three cells)
Then I put that in all three of these
Rest of the trans tune
General tab
Confirm the trans type, in stock vehicle the PRNDL should be left at PRNDL. This refers to whether the shifter sends an electrical signal for these selections. In swaps this can be set to PN only or disabled if the shifter is not connected. Confirm gear ratios (only really need to do this where a car has been changed from a 4l60 to a 4l80).
Manual
Do nothing
Shift General
These are the values Matt Happel uses with success. THey also work for me and Im not trying to fix what isnt broken. The max pressure on the upshift tab under the shift scheduling section is set to 96, so the highest values the transmission will reach are the 96 column.
1093.75 | 957.0313 | 834.9609 | 815.4297 | 776.3672 | 776.3672 | 737.3047 | 737.3047 | 717.7734 | 678.7109 | 659.1797 | 576.1719 | 498.0469 | 478.5156 | 356.4453 | 200.1953 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 1137.695 | 961.9141 | 922.8516 | 883.7891 | 849.6094 | 815.4297 | 776.3672 | 737.3047 | 688.4766 | 644.5313 | 590.8203 | 527.3438 | 468.75 | 400.3906 | 297.8516 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 1118.164 | 976.5625 | 947.2656 | 898.4375 | 869.1406 | 834.9609 | 800.7813 | 761.7188 | 722.6563 | 673.8281 | 625 | 571.2891 | 517.5781 | 449.2188 | 327.1484 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 1079.102 | 976.5625 | 932.6172 | 898.4375 | 859.375 | 825.1953 | 791.0156 | 751.9531 | 708.0078 | 668.9453 | 615.2344 | 561.5234 | 493.1641 | 415.0391 | 327.1484 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 996.0938 | 961.9141 | 922.8516 | 888.6719 | 854.4922 | 820.3125 | 786.1328 | 747.0703 | 703.125 | 659.1797 | 600.5859 | 541.9922 | 473.6328 | 395.5078 | 307.6172 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 991.2109 | 952.1484 | 913.0859 | 878.9063 | 844.7266 | 805.6641 | 771.4844 | 732.4219 | 693.3594 | 644.5313 | 590.8203 | 551.7578 | 454.1016 | 375.9766 | 278.3203 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 981.4453 | 942.3828 | 903.3203 | 869.1406 | 834.9609 | 795.8984 | 761.7188 | 722.6563 | 683.5938 | 629.8828 | 576.1719 | 566.4063 | 439.4531 | 351.5625 | 244.1406 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 976.5625 | 932.6172 | 898.4375 | 864.2578 | 830.0781 | 786.1328 | 756.8359 | 717.7734 | 673.8281 | 620.1172 | 566.4063 | 527.3438 | 424.8047 | 336.9141 | 224.6094 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 966.7969 | 922.8516 | 888.6719 | 854.4922 | 820.3125 | 781.25 | 747.0703 | 708.0078 | 664.0625 | 610.3516 | 556.6406 | 488.2813 | 410.1563 | 327.1484 | 151.3672 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 952.1484 | 913.0859 | 878.9063 | 849.6094 | 810.5469 | 776.3672 | 737.3047 | 698.2422 | 654.2969 | 605.4688 | 546.875 | 478.5156 | 400.3906 | 307.6172 | 102.5391 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 942.3828 | 908.2031 | 878.9063 | 834.9609 | 800.7813 | 766.6016 | 742.1875 | 688.4766 | 644.5313 | 590.8203 | 537.1094 | 468.75 | 390.625 | 292.9688 | 97.65625 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 932.6172 | 893.5547 | 854.4922 | 825.1953 | 791.0156 | 756.8359 | 717.7734 | 678.7109 | 634.7656 | 585.9375 | 522.4609 | 468.75 | 380.8594 | 268.5547 | 102.5391 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 922.8516 | 888.6719 | 849.6094 | 820.3125 | 786.1328 | 747.0703 | 712.8906 | 673.8281 | 625 | 576.1719 | 517.5781 | 449.2188 | 361.3281 | 244.1406 | 107.4219 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 922.8516 | 878.9063 | 839.8438 | 805.6641 | 771.4844 | 732.4219 | 698.2422 | 639.6484 | 615.2344 | 571.2891 | 517.5781 | 454.1016 | 361.3281 | 219.7266 | 107.4219 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 908.2031 | 878.9063 | 834.9609 | 795.8984 | 761.7188 | 727.5391 | 688.4766 | 644.5313 | 610.3516 | 561.5234 | 512.6953 | 449.2188 | 449.2188 | 224.6094 | 107.4219 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 937.5 | 898.4375 | 854.4922 | 815.4297 | 776.3672 | 737.3047 | 698.2422 | 659.1797 | 595.7031 | 556.6406 | 498.0469 | 419.9219 | 297.8516 | 161.1328 | 97.65625 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
1093.75 | 937.5 | 898.4375 | 854.4922 | 815.4297 | 776.3672 | 737.3047 | 698.2422 | 659.1797 | 595.7031 | 556.6406 | 498.0469 | 419.9219 | 297.8516 | 161.1328 | 97.65625 | 97.65625 | 1245.117 |
Shift pressures
There is a lot to modify on this page. The stock tune allows constant slippage of the torque converter. Changing to these values will disable this constant slipping. I will briefly discuss
By changing the Steady State Adapt Counters, particularly the Up Clutch Slip and the Up TCC Slip you are disabling the computers ability to do a controlled slip of the torque converter. This is very hard on the torque converter but done from the factory for NVH, smooth idle takeoffs, towing, and other reasons. If you are putting double factory power through the converter and slipping it it is extremely hard on it per my understanding. Watch Cameron Powers on the sloppy radio show he discusses this.
There are too many values here to copy and paste so I will post this example tune.
Shift Pressures tab / Upshift subtab
This tab controls the "feel" of the shifts and helps ensure the transmission will shift under high power. Note this isn't a substitute for putting an actual physical shift kit in...that is still necessary for improved lubrication and more consistent line pressure, etc.
'
Once again you want to make the Normal and Performance tables the same or you will get inconsistent values.
Here is what I use
At anything over 340 lb-ft (as read at the input shaft) I am jumping to the 96psi line pressure mentioned above. This will knock force motor current down to the very low level that is in the force motor current table above. The assumption is that any time you are over this torque level you want a performance/race shift.
The pressure modifiers can be left alone, increased if you want a hard ass shift, or if you do not like super firm shifting under regular driving, can be reduced (which is what I have done here)
The downshift pressure modifiers I leave alone at the default of 0. Mayyybe on an autocross car you could try upping these to see if it responds quicker on downshifts
Shift Timing Tab
The shift timing tab is the quickness of the shifts
Note that with the stock valve body however you might not get what you put in here...
The Normal and Performance tables need to be the same, or once again you will get inconsistent behavior, trans may go into weird modes, etc.
I generally just set these at .100 across the board
Also a big disclaimer I should have put at the top of the thread is the 4L60e, regardless of "build level" is a piece of shit and I am very uncomfortable doing all this to them and have personally seen failures. I have yet to see any 4l80e failures/problems from this. Generally on 4l60es I just fix the shift speed/rpm tables.
Torque Converter Tab
Heres what things do here:
Shift Lock locks the converter on shifts - the only reason you would disable is if you have a non-lockup 4l80e converter
TCC Duty Cycle sets "how locked" it is, this is very similar to the converter slipping crap. If the minimum duty cycle is say "4" then the converter can be "locked" but only very loosely locked. I believe this is once again done for NVH and smoother transition to locking. I either want it locked or not locked to protect the converter and get predictable performance. I set the minimum to 95.
Apply/Release
Once again controls converter behavior. Here's where we switch back to Bluecat!
In Bluecat we click Next again under Export until we see this screen based on the gear ratio, tire size, converter rpm figures we put in
This gives us new converter lockup speeds based on our shift speeds
We want to take this info and put it in the Normal, Cruise, Hot, Performance tables. These will be much different than stock.
For the Release TPS I use 62...once again it works. This means the converter will be automatically release if the throttle goes over this. You could also use 50
Torque Management tab
If you leave torque management enabled on a supercharged/turbocharged car then the trans/engine will go into abuse mode all the time because it will constantly see more than the allowed power.
So to make a turbo 4l80e car "good" we have to disable it. The 4l80e is fine with this. You just should not use the 4l60e with forced induction and I personally will not tune it (and think youre a clown tbh).
I leave torque management on for 4l60es with n/a combos, although I may soften it some. 8192 rpm is the max value. This means abuse mode cannot come in below this.
Desired Torque
I zero this out
Torque Reduction
I zero this out
Torque Reduction
I zero both tables.
Once again if you have an NA car with its original 4l60 then you should leave these alone.
This tab controls the "feel" of the shifts and helps ensure the transmission will shift under high power. Note this isn't a substitute for putting an actual physical shift kit in...that is still necessary for improved lubrication and more consistent line pressure, etc.
Once again you want to make the Normal and Performance tables the same or you will get inconsistent values.
Here is what I use
At anything over 340 lb-ft (as read at the input shaft) I am jumping to the 96psi line pressure mentioned above. This will knock force motor current down to the very low level that is in the force motor current table above. The assumption is that any time you are over this torque level you want a performance/race shift.
0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.75 | 3 | 6 | 10.25 | 13 | 16 | 31.5 | 61 | 81.75 | 90.75 | 95.25 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 |
4 | 4.671875 | 4.671875 | 4.671875 | 4.796875 | 6.390625 | 10.5 | 14.375 | 17.57813 | 20.75 | 23.95313 | 27.5 | 37.20313 | 67.54688 | 82.70313 | 91.92188 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 |
4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4.75 | 7.5 | 11.5 | 16 | 19 | 22 | 26.5 | 30 | 44.75 | 71.75 | 89 | 93 | 95.25 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 | 96 |
The pressure modifiers can be left alone, increased if you want a hard ass shift, or if you do not like super firm shifting under regular driving, can be reduced (which is what I have done here)
The downshift pressure modifiers I leave alone at the default of 0. Mayyybe on an autocross car you could try upping these to see if it responds quicker on downshifts
Shift Timing Tab
The shift timing tab is the quickness of the shifts
Note that with the stock valve body however you might not get what you put in here...
The Normal and Performance tables need to be the same, or once again you will get inconsistent behavior, trans may go into weird modes, etc.
I generally just set these at .100 across the board
Also a big disclaimer I should have put at the top of the thread is the 4L60e, regardless of "build level" is a piece of shit and I am very uncomfortable doing all this to them and have personally seen failures. I have yet to see any 4l80e failures/problems from this. Generally on 4l60es I just fix the shift speed/rpm tables.
Torque Converter Tab
Heres what things do here:
Shift Lock locks the converter on shifts - the only reason you would disable is if you have a non-lockup 4l80e converter
TCC Duty Cycle sets "how locked" it is, this is very similar to the converter slipping crap. If the minimum duty cycle is say "4" then the converter can be "locked" but only very loosely locked. I believe this is once again done for NVH and smoother transition to locking. I either want it locked or not locked to protect the converter and get predictable performance. I set the minimum to 95.
Apply/Release
Once again controls converter behavior. Here's where we switch back to Bluecat!
In Bluecat we click Next again under Export until we see this screen based on the gear ratio, tire size, converter rpm figures we put in
This gives us new converter lockup speeds based on our shift speeds
We want to take this info and put it in the Normal, Cruise, Hot, Performance tables. These will be much different than stock.
For the Release TPS I use 62...once again it works. This means the converter will be automatically release if the throttle goes over this. You could also use 50
Torque Management tab
If you leave torque management enabled on a supercharged/turbocharged car then the trans/engine will go into abuse mode all the time because it will constantly see more than the allowed power.
So to make a turbo 4l80e car "good" we have to disable it. The 4l80e is fine with this. You just should not use the 4l60e with forced induction and I personally will not tune it (and think youre a clown tbh).
I leave torque management on for 4l60es with n/a combos, although I may soften it some. 8192 rpm is the max value. This means abuse mode cannot come in below this.
Desired Torque
I zero this out
Torque Reduction
I zero this out
Torque Reduction
I zero both tables.
Once again if you have an NA car with its original 4l60 then you should leave these alone.
Chip are you local Chicago, I noticed in your sig you can tune a 2.3 SVO, I have a buddy who wired up a Dominator in an '86 Mustang SVO and I think he said he needed some tuning for it. Let me know.
It's great you are helping this guy, maybe you should tune it for him lol.
I've used 2 tuning friends for my '67 turbo LS, first guy does remote and got it going but then I took it to my friend in MI who had scoped out the whole build. I've got about 3 hours of driving around in it on the North side, never got over 190.
It's great you are helping this guy, maybe you should tune it for him lol.
I've used 2 tuning friends for my '67 turbo LS, first guy does remote and got it going but then I took it to my friend in MI who had scoped out the whole build. I've got about 3 hours of driving around in it on the North side, never got over 190.
Pro Stock John in San Diego- I joined here because people said it was a replacement for sloppy FB but it looks like its the same 3-4 people posting lol
Turbocharged400sbc if you put the holley terminatorx system on the v6 you can have as many bars as you want, and auto-tuning VE tables, and built in boost control, and eliminate the maf, and control LS coils by default...just like the LS guys
Here's what Im talking about on holley for anyone following along
In the Holley software you set a "Target Air/Fuel Ratio" and then the computer uses the wideband to adjust the VE table 90 times a second to hit whatever AFR you command. There is no tuning of the VE, logging, copying, pasting, all that stuff. It does this at all RPM/load levels/in boost out of boost etc.
In the Holley software you set a "Target Air/Fuel Ratio" and then the computer uses the wideband to adjust the VE table 90 times a second to hit whatever AFR you command. There is no tuning of the VE, logging, copying, pasting, all that stuff. It does this at all RPM/load levels/in boost out of boost etc.
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