Autobahn Monday 9/14


JAhmed

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Posts
42
Reaction score
136
Location
Glen Ellyn
Wow almost to the 39s....

I’ll have to do a ride along next time you’re out there. What kind of times were you doing in your Carrera?
Unfortunately I only started running timing this year with the Charger...never ended up timing myself with my previous Cayman or 911s. I am not even sure how reliable or accurate Harry’s is, so I am doing research on a better solution for next year. Those who are better with data can tell me if these times seem accurate or not

F37BC92F-C204-439B-AE70-ED28F80FCEC5.jpeg
 

OmniGLH

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Posts
106
Reaction score
28
Location
Huntley
I've seen a lot of very, very bizarre behavior from Harry's - both in the occurrences I tried to use it (and I spent a couple hundred bucks buying all the extra bluetooth crap thinking that would fix it), and in personally witnessing friends use it. Moving start/finish lines being the most odd of behaviors (one case at Blackhawk Farms, it tracked the "finish" line just exiting 7 - and the "start" line up just past the tower - leaving almost the entire front straight untimed) - though that makes itself apparent quickly if there was accompanying video, which is how I caught it happening.

I'd suggest if you're gonna keep trying to work with it, get a phone mount so it can capture video at the same time - or run a GoPro to back it up.

I eventually got fed up with it and just ponied up for am AiM SoloDL.
 

JAhmed

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Posts
42
Reaction score
136
Location
Glen Ellyn
Yes that is likely what I will do. Thus far though, I guess I will just take Harry's word for it...though the number of incredulous reactions I've had to my 2:40.xx makes me question it LOLOL
 

10sec

I haz dat teddy bear smile.
Donating Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Posts
24,889
Reaction score
1,758
2:40 is really fast, like modified street car class with Aero, "200tw" tires, track focused cars. I bet it crossed up the start finish with the other start finish and gave you a bunch of extra time?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I have never had a discrepancy with Harry's in the many many years I've used it.
 

Phalabala

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Posts
220
Reaction score
107
Location
Inverness
dude is in advanced... so....

I know I was on someone's bumper that supposedly ran a series of 2:40.xx's and those were some maximum attack laps in my ZL1 1LE. I was EXHAUSTED after that session, I really wish I captured it on the PDR but got fucked by technical difficulties :(
 
OP
WhiteKnuckleScat

WhiteKnuckleScat

Well-known member
Donating Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Posts
468
Reaction score
572
Location
Bedford Park
Same car, same day, same app. His time is legit and I need a ride along! Your avg mph is almost 9-10 above mine. I don’t get many clean laps in novice. All I want to do is get under 3:00 lol
IMG_1178.png
 

10sec

I haz dat teddy bear smile.
Donating Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Posts
24,889
Reaction score
1,758
I only run advanced, fuck trying to get those newbs to let you pass in any of the other groups. I was running 2:52's with a pretty much stock power s2000 on 200TW tires. I do know that a supercharged one with Aero and much better tires went like 2:35's. 5 sec slower than that in a car that weighs 1000lbs+ more with no real modifications does have me second guessing, but like I said, Harry's has never failed to give me a realistic consistent time.
 

JAhmed

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Posts
42
Reaction score
136
Location
Glen Ellyn
I am always down for some critical analysis. This is my first year running timing, but I guess its relevant that I have done 20 track days per summer at Autobahn for the last 3 years (mostly in Cayman or 911 and mostly on South course).

For reference, my car is setup as follows:
2020 Charger SP
Eibach ProKit
Carbotech XP10/XP8
Powerstop Trackday rotors
Motul RBF600
Hellcat wheels with 275/295 PS4S (4 days on them when I ran Monday) @ 29 psi cold
Mid muffler delete
Lower grill removal (reduced oil temps a smidge)
CG Lock (my L leg has been killing me all week LOLOL)

I run the car in Auto mode (don't bother with paddle shifters, let the trans figure out what it wants to do) + "Sport" traction control (generally only see intervention around the exit of 10 if I get too exuberant)

Oh, and for the LULZ, these are my front rotors after Monday
photo_2020-09-15_14-00-15.jpg
 

10sec

I haz dat teddy bear smile.
Donating Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Posts
24,889
Reaction score
1,758
I've said it before, but i just love seeing those big body cars at the track, so damn cool. I could park my car inside of that car :rofl: The ZL1's are cool, stupid fast, and big, but 4drs are :fy:
 
OP
WhiteKnuckleScat

WhiteKnuckleScat

Well-known member
Donating Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Posts
468
Reaction score
572
Location
Bedford Park
I am always down for some critical analysis. This is my first year running timing, but I guess its relevant that I have done 20 track days per summer at Autobahn for the last 3 years (mostly in Cayman or 911 and mostly on South course).

For reference, my car is setup as follows:
2020 Charger SP
Eibach ProKit
Carbotech XP10/XP8
Powerstop Trackday rotors
Motul RBF600
Hellcat wheels with 275/295 PS4S (4 days on them when I ran Monday) @ 29 psi cold
Mid muffler delete
Lower grill removal (reduced oil temps a smidge)
CG Lock (my L leg has been killing me all week LOLOL)

I run the car in Auto mode (don't bother with paddle shifters, let the trans figure out what it wants to do) + "Sport" traction control (generally only see intervention around the exit of 10 if I get too exuberant)

Oh, and for the LULZ, these are my front rotors after Monday
View attachment 67223
Wow, looks like those new pads are too much for the cheap trackday rotors.
I had a long chat with a guy on Facebook about our cars and the brakes. Shoot me a text with your email and I’ll send you the transcript if your interested. They guy seemed to know his shit, he builds brake systems for armored vehicles and tracks his charger hellcat.
 

JAhmed

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Posts
42
Reaction score
136
Location
Glen Ellyn
Wow, looks like those new pads are too much for the cheap trackday rotors.
I had a long chat with a guy on Facebook about our cars and the brakes. Shoot me a text with your email and I’ll send you the transcript if your interested. They guy seemed to know his shit, he builds brake systems for armored vehicles and tracks his charger hellcat.
Text inbound!
 

OmniGLH

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Posts
106
Reaction score
28
Location
Huntley
Well your best time on South is in that car is a 1:43.09 according to your post on 9/1. And then your best of a 2:40.2 for Full.

I hope I don't come off as a dick even though I have a feeling I will anyways... please know it's not my intent - honest! But here's why I think there is a disparity here and am more or less calling Shenanigans.

For reference, my best time on South is a 1:36.4 - on a super hot day (95F), set just two weeks ago. That's 7 seconds ahead of you on South.

The last time I ran Full was ~2 years ago, and while the car hasn't changed much - I do have a significantly better grasp of car setup today than I did then, and as such have a better alignment, damper settings, etc. - my best on Full on the RE-71R was a 2:44.9. (And based on data and optimal segment review, old/new video, etc. I guesstimate I'd be somewhere in the 41.9 range on a cool day today - but that's beside the point I'm making here.)

Down 7 seconds from South, and ending 4 seconds ahead on Full - implies you made up ~11 seconds on my time, just on North. Which, for reference, my best time on North was a 1:10.6 - set on the same 95F day as the South lap I referenced above. Unless you feel your driving on the South portion of the course on Monday was 7+ seconds faster than it was when you did the 43.

On the same day I did the 44.9 in my car, I took a friend's Spec Cayman for a session. It wasn't my car, I'd never driven it before, and it was my first time (ever) on Hoosiers - so I was deliberately leaving margin for error. Earlier that day, the car's owner (who I have a lot of respect for, as a driver) did a 39.9... so I was definitely chasing to see what I could put down - and did a 2:40.7 on the last lap of the session. So, while, yeah, I left a lot of room for error, this is a 2700lb ~295hp prepped race car on Hoosiers.

A low 2:40 - almost a 2:39 - is hustling. In a 4400lb sedan, on street tires, that's REALLY hustling. So, I mean, I don't want to rain on your parade... but with the math here + my previous own experience with Harry's... you can hopefully see why I feel this doesn't add up. If you're able to legit cut a 2:40 in that car then there are apparently lots of things I can learn from you - and I've been racing and coaching/instructing at ABCC alone for 10 years (and racing in general for over 25). So... yeah... I definitely want a ride-along.

Hell, legit lap or not, I want a ride along - that boat's gotta be hilarious out there.

;)
 

JAhmed

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Posts
42
Reaction score
136
Location
Glen Ellyn
Well your best time on South is in that car is a 1:43.09 according to your post on 9/1. And then your best of a 2:40.2 for Full.

I hope I don't come off as a dick even though I have a feeling I will anyways... please know it's not my intent - honest! But here's why I think there is a disparity here and am more or less calling Shenanigans.

For reference, my best time on South is a 1:36.4 - on a super hot day (95F), set just two weeks ago. That's 7 seconds ahead of you on South.

The last time I ran Full was ~2 years ago, and while the car hasn't changed much - I do have a significantly better grasp of car setup today than I did then, and as such have a better alignment, damper settings, etc. - my best on Full on the RE-71R was a 2:44.9. (And based on data and optimal segment review, old/new video, etc. I guesstimate I'd be somewhere in the 41.9 range on a cool day today - but that's beside the point I'm making here.)

Down 7 seconds from South, and ending 4 seconds ahead on Full - implies you made up ~11 seconds on my time, just on North. Which, for reference, my best time on North was a 1:10.6 - set on the same 95F day as the South lap I referenced above. Unless you feel your driving on the South portion of the course on Monday was 7+ seconds faster than it was when you did the 43.

On the same day I did the 44.9 in my car, I took a friend's Spec Cayman for a session. It wasn't my car, I'd never driven it before, and it was my first time (ever) on Hoosiers - so I was deliberately leaving margin for error. Earlier that day, the car's owner (who I have a lot of respect for, as a driver) did a 39.9... so I was definitely chasing to see what I could put down - and did a 2:40.7 on the last lap of the session. So, while, yeah, I left a lot of room for error, this is a 2700lb ~295hp prepped race car on Hoosiers.

A low 2:40 - almost a 2:39 - is hustling. In a 4400lb sedan, on street tires, that's REALLY hustling. So, I mean, I don't want to rain on your parade... but with the math here + my previous own experience with Harry's... you can hopefully see why I feel this doesn't add up. If you're able to legit cut a 2:40 in that car then there are apparently lots of things I can learn from you - and I've been racing and coaching/instructing at ABCC alone for 10 years (and racing in general for over 25). So... yeah... I definitely want a ride-along.

Hell, legit lap or not, I want a ride along - that boat's gotta be hilarious out there.

;)
Oh dude, no worries at all. I appreciate your analysis and experience...I am truly only out on the track to learn and have fun. I have a day job and I am not a racing driver! Shawn (the guy who runs LAPS INC) knows me well...I'm just a crazy dude that loves turning laps and isn't all that concerned with trying to a set a record or anything.

This is exactly why I am interested in moving to another form of timing come next season, so that perhaps I can get data that makes more sense I guess? I definitely do feel I got a better handle of the car since I ran that day on South, but I am not sure I could extrapolate that feeling into saying I was going x seconds faster.

Regardless, I am not too worried about the time in general...as I said, I am out there to have fun (hence why I never ran timing for the past 5 years of tracking in various cars).
 

J-LO

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Posts
3,002
Reaction score
695
Location
In Da Hood
I think you are going to have a long list of who want a ride lol at the pace you are carrying. Regardless of the lap time you’re doing things in that car that sound hella exciting
 

OmniGLH

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Posts
106
Reaction score
28
Location
Huntley
Oh dude, no worries at all. I appreciate your analysis and experience...I am truly only out on the track to learn and have fun. I have a day job and I am not a racing driver! Shawn (the guy who runs LAPS INC) knows me well...I'm just a crazy dude that loves turning laps and isn't all that concerned with trying to a set a record or anything.

This is exactly why I am interested in moving to another form of timing come next season, so that perhaps I can get data that makes more sense I guess? I definitely do feel I got a better handle of the car since I ran that day on South, but I am not sure I could extrapolate that feeling into saying I was going x seconds faster.

Regardless, I am not too worried about the time in general...as I said, I am out there to have fun (hence why I never ran timing for the past 5 years of tracking in various cars).
:)

You've got the right attitude - fun first. :) A good timer would probably be beneficial - one with datalogging, even better - makes it easier to start cutting up laps and finding out where you're gaining or losing time. And while chasing lap times and trying to set personal records sometimes goes against the spirit of lapping/DE days - they are the best indicator of improvement too.

7s on a sub-2:00 course is MASSIVE. Hell 7s on a 4:00 course is massive. If you were going 7s faster, you'd know it. It would almost be like the difference between a wet day and a dry day.
 

JAhmed

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Posts
42
Reaction score
136
Location
Glen Ellyn
:)

You've got the right attitude - fun first. :) A good timer would probably be beneficial - one with datalogging, even better - makes it easier to start cutting up laps and finding out where you're gaining or losing time. And while chasing lap times and trying to set personal records sometimes goes against the spirit of lapping/DE days - they are the best indicator of improvement too.

7s on a sub-2:00 course is MASSIVE. Hell 7s on a 4:00 course is massive. If you were going 7s faster, you'd know it. It would almost be like the difference between a wet day and a dry day.
Makes sense. Honestly though I am just entertained with wrestling this thing around a track...before this season, I did nearly 40 days in a 2018 PDK Carrera...it felt completely different, but this car FEELS like it’s going faster because of all the mass moving around.
 

OmniGLH

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Posts
106
Reaction score
28
Location
Huntley
Put one of my Laps up on YouTube. This was about the sixth lapp and my brakes weren’t feeling great at this point, the next lap is where the pedal went soft into turn 11. Next time I mount the camera here I’ll try a wide angle because some of the corners get cut off.
Open to suggestions on how to improve. This was a 03:00.93 laptime.

What camera was this? The way it feels like the view moves - was some kind of image stabilization running? Any chance you've got a raw video without any of that? Might make it easier to tell brake and turn-in points, etc.

So, given some of that weirdness....

Feels like you missed the apex into Full 2 - went too deep on the brakes. Back up a notch and try to get to that first curb, then let the car run out (you got the "run out" part right). Exiting 2, need to be further to the right so that 3 is opened up more.

3 - since you were mid-track your turn in got pinched. Need a much later apex.

4 - turned in too early. I get your car is heavy but you can go a little bit later before turn in. The reference for 4 to know you got it right - there's a little 'tit' in the inside curbing. Be parallel to the curbing AFTER the tit.

abcc_tit.jpg

T6 - go up the middle/middle-left of the straight leading to 6. Don't go ALLLL the way left. Aim for the imaginary "1.5" marker or just to the left of it.... your "arc" through there should basically be tangent to the outside edge of the track right at the "1" marker, then touch the apex curb, then track-out curb.

T9 - looks fine but the camera does some weird panning?

T10 - looks like early turn-in but could be the camera pan again?

Little chicane after back straight - try to suck up as much curb on the right side (entry) as possible. It's smooth. And it opens up the left (exit) such that it's barely a bend.

T13 - this turn is deceptively fast. Use the camber - lots of it at the bottom of the hill. You want to be as LATE as possible. Much like the exit of 2, or the exit of 9, you want to END the turn ALLL the way right. Theres small green curbing in the dirt AFTER the red/white curbing ends. That's where you want to be. That sets you up for 14.

T14 - another LATE one. Aim to apex AFTER the red/white curbing ends - little green curbing again (see below.) When you "exit" 14, only use the middle of the track, don't swing alllll the way right because then you have to come alllll the way left for 15. Sacrifice time/speed here to stretch out 15 and the straight afterwards

abcc_14.jpg

T15 - aim for the leading edge of the curbing. It's blind - about as blind as you get here at ABCC.

T16 - can't see shit, camera aimed off to the left

T18 - gotta get to that curbing on the inside. Slow up earlier.
 

Phalabala

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Posts
220
Reaction score
107
Location
Inverness
T15 - aim for the leading edge of the curbing. It's blind - about as blind as you get here at ABCC.
ooo that is a great note! I'm going to remember that one too!

can this be the thread where OmniGLH does some lap diagnoses?!?!
 

OmniGLH

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Posts
106
Reaction score
28
Location
Huntley
ooo that is a great note! I'm going to remember that one too!

can this be the thread where OmniGLH does some lap diagnoses?!?!
Bob and I do a turn-by-turn every LAPS event in the afternoon, too :)

But if you have some clips I can offer up ideas.
 

OmniGLH

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2013
Posts
106
Reaction score
28
Location
Huntley
Here's something potentially helpful. I recorded the underlying lap way back in 2012 - mostly stock 944 Turbo on all-seasons... don't look at this as a record for time... but I did try to highlight some things. I put this together a few years later to help a guy who wanted some private coaching in his BMW.

1 - the first "lap" - I point out the visual cues, things on track to aim for, which largely still hold true. T15 is done wrong here but the rest isn't terrible.

2 - the second "lap" - a little rough BUT the floating circle is an attempt to show you roughly where your eyes should be focused. Main point of this: EYES UP.


 

Phalabala

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Posts
220
Reaction score
107
Location
Inverness
Bob and I do a turn-by-turn every LAPS event in the afternoon, too :)

But if you have some clips I can offer up ideas.
hah, now I can put a face to a (nick)name!

you know, I was going to make a suggestion for you folks.... the turn-by-turn overlaps with one of the blue sessions :(

this was not my most technically proficient session of the day and I was having some trans issues with the trans not going into 3rd properly on downshifts sometimes. In other sessions I was pushing back the braking zone into 11 quite a bit deeper, just didn't manage that in this particular session/lap. Additionally in other sessions I've been flat through the mini-kink but early in the day I cut the curbing a little early (ker-chunk) so my brain was making me hold up a bit on that.

curious what else you see?

 

Phalabala

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Posts
220
Reaction score
107
Location
Inverness
Here's something potentially helpful. I recorded the underlying lap way back in 2012 - mostly stock 944 Turbo on all-seasons... don't look at this as a record for time... but I did try to highlight some things. I put this together a few years later to help a guy who wanted some private coaching in his BMW.

1 - the first "lap" - I point out the visual cues, things on track to aim for, which largely still hold true. T15 is done wrong here but the rest isn't terrible.

2 - the second "lap" - a little rough BUT the floating circle is an attempt to show you roughly where your eyes should be focused. Main point of this: EYES UP.


I've watched that a few times too over the years. There is another person that recorded a lap guide as well but the example lap was in a time attack evo so ever so slightly different than my car...
 
OP
WhiteKnuckleScat

WhiteKnuckleScat

Well-known member
Donating Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Posts
468
Reaction score
572
Location
Bedford Park
What camera was this? The way it feels like the view moves - was some kind of image stabilization running? Any chance you've got a raw video without any of that? Might make it easier to tell brake and turn-in points, etc.

So, given some of that weirdness....

Feels like you missed the apex into Full 2 - went too deep on the brakes. Back up a notch and try to get to that first curb, then let the car run out (you got the "run out" part right). Exiting 2, need to be further to the right so that 3 is opened up more.

3 - since you were mid-track your turn in got pinched. Need a much later apex.

4 - turned in too early. I get your car is heavy but you can go a little bit later before turn in. The reference for 4 to know you got it right - there's a little 'tit' in the inside curbing. Be parallel to the curbing AFTER the tit.

View attachment 67297

T6 - go up the middle/middle-left of the straight leading to 6. Don't go ALLLL the way left. Aim for the imaginary "1.5" marker or just to the left of it.... your "arc" through there should basically be tangent to the outside edge of the track right at the "1" marker, then touch the apex curb, then track-out curb.

T9 - looks fine but the camera does some weird panning?

T10 - looks like early turn-in but could be the camera pan again?

Little chicane after back straight - try to suck up as much curb on the right side (entry) as possible. It's smooth. And it opens up the left (exit) such that it's barely a bend.

T13 - this turn is deceptively fast. Use the camber - lots of it at the bottom of the hill. You want to be as LATE as possible. Much like the exit of 2, or the exit of 9, you want to END the turn ALLL the way right. Theres small green curbing in the dirt AFTER the red/white curbing ends. That's where you want to be. That sets you up for 14.

T14 - another LATE one. Aim to apex AFTER the red/white curbing ends - little green curbing again (see below.) When you "exit" 14, only use the middle of the track, don't swing alllll the way right because then you have to come alllll the way left for 15. Sacrifice time/speed here to stretch out 15 and the straight afterwards

View attachment 67300

T15 - aim for the leading edge of the curbing. It's blind - about as blind as you get here at ABCC.

T16 - can't see shit, camera aimed off to the left

T18 - gotta get to that curbing on the inside. Slow up earlier.
Holly crap, you are the man. Gonna take some time tonight to digest this. I put the go pro on a tow hook mount for the final session. I know, some of it looks weird. Maybe because the tow hook is off center. It’s a hero 8, I dont think it pans on its own...
Anyways thanks .
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Top Bottom