3800 - Ford GT blower swap

jdredd

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Jan 29, 2014
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13308225_10209401537219091_8260155167765068651_o.jpg


Screen shot I found of when the trans flipped out at the track back in June.
This uses some precision temp sensors so should be pretty accurate.

Temps towards the far right ... Column Z / AA

This was with a nice cool down period and temps that day weren't bad at all.

But pretty typical numbers and setup is pretty solid.

It's just a hot box output ..

One point at the bottom was 390* pre-IC and 264* post IC.. so
126* drop in temp at that point.

All just food for thought .... keep up the good work :hs:
 
13308225_10209401537219091_8260155167765068651_o.jpg


Screen shot I found of when the trans flipped out at the track back in June.
This uses some precision temp sensors so should be pretty accurate.

Temps towards the far right ... Column Z / AA

This was with a nice cool down period and temps that day weren't bad at all.

But pretty typical numbers and setup is pretty solid.

It's just a hot box output ..

One point at the bottom was 390* pre-IC and 264* post IC.. so
126* drop in temp at that point.

All just food for thought .... keep up the good work :hs:

You might want to monitor your water temps in and out to see what's up. There's no way you should have that much heat post-IC if you're flowing enough cool water through the core (and have enough water capacity in your system). The BTU transfer ability of a core that size should be plenty so long as you've got enough temperature differential between the heat exchanger surface and the charge air. Which would require flowing enough water through the core to offset your charge temp drop with a reasonable water temp rise across the core, say 20 degrees. So if the water is 80 degrees going in, and 100 degrees coming out and your intercooler is say 80% efficiency, with charge temps of 374 degrees, your air temps post-IC would be 147 degrees. 227 degree drop. If you're flowing 53 lb/min of air that's 3007 BTU/min (edit: it's actually 4x that in BTUs...it takes .25 btu to cool a lb of air 1 degree F so I had already done the math on that but didn't initially show that step here). that needs to be removed. To maintain that 20 degree water temp rise across the core then, you'd need to flow 3007/20=150 lb/min. 150/8= 18.75 gallons per minute through the core. Flow half that and you get twice the temp rise and so on. It would turn into kind of a recursive problem to actually figure out what's going on with your system without knowing what the water temps in and out are, but I wager due to system head pressure, you're probably flowing 5gpm or less with that Meziere when you need to be flowing closer to 20gpm. And with the heat exchanger being less of a realtime process with that kind of heat load, even with adequate flow rate through the core you need a hefty system capacity, or phase change to keep water temps in check.

I have a VERY strong suspicion flow rate is the problem. But with that taken care of and you actually dumping more heat into the water, rapidly rising water temps on-boost will likely be the next bottleneck to pop up...easily fixed with ice, less so with water mass.
 

jdredd

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Jan 29, 2014
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You might want to monitor your water temps in and out to see what's up. There's no way you should have that much heat post-IC if you're flowing enough cool water through the core (and have enough water capacity in your system). The BTU transfer ability of a core that size should be plenty so long as you've got enough temperature differential between the heat exchanger surface and the charge air. Which would require flowing enough water through the core to offset your charge temp drop with a reasonable water temp rise across the core, say 20 degrees. So if the water is 80 degrees going in, and 100 degrees coming out and your intercooler is say 80% efficiency, with charge temps of 374 degrees, your air temps post-IC would be 147 degrees. 227 degree drop. If you're flowing 53 lb/min of air that's 3007 BTU/min (edit: it's actually 4x that in BTUs...it takes .25 btu to cool a lb of air 1 degree F so I had already done the math on that but didn't initially show that step here). that needs to be removed. To maintain that 20 degree water temp rise across the core then, you'd need to flow 3007/20=150 lb/min. 150/8= 18.75 gallons per minute through the core. Flow half that and you get twice the temp rise and so on. It would turn into kind of a recursive problem to actually figure out what's going on with your system without knowing what the water temps in and out are, but I wager due to system head pressure, you're probably flowing 5gpm or less with that Meziere when you need to be flowing closer to 20gpm. And with the heat exchanger being less of a realtime process with that kind of heat load, even with adequate flow rate through the core you need a hefty system capacity, or phase change to keep water temps in check.

I have a VERY strong suspicion flow rate is the problem. But with that taken care of and you actually dumping more heat into the water, rapidly rising water temps on-boost will likely be the next bottleneck to pop up...easily fixed with ice, less so with water mass.

Could be flow possibly, but gonna doubt it for now.

I think more of the problem is speed of the air blasting through a small IC core.

We are talking about a 6x6x3 core. How much of that is going across the whole thing uniformly is probably not super great.



Here is pic of inlet side.

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Outlet side

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Get an idea of the core... Myself, would have liked more fin count but apparently that was
an issue of getting that maybe during the process of getting a custom core made.

Finding a better replacement core that fits the bill could boost increase of temp drop by a good percent I would think.

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We have a big blower, that makes big heat, sitting on what is probably considered a
tiny intercooler.

If you look at the v8 guys running twin screws, they run a HUUUUUUGE intercooler core.
Almost rivals the front mount heat exchangers....

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Challenger_64_800_7.jpg



Ice would help, but it melts in like 10 seconds... and can't drive daily with an ice maker in the trunk... (or can we?)

I am sure there could be some pump fine tuning on flow but not fast enough to cause cavitation but i think i worst enemy is room.
There isn't much room to fit a monster core under the blower for us. Only way is to keep going up and make it tall as possible.

Remove dog bones, lower mount setup... put the blower in front of the engine like a cobalt sorta, and run a true A/W intercooler for it blow into.
Then can run a trashcan sized intercooler :)

Alternative is if someone would finally cast a new lower intake manifold to maximize the ability to run a monster core setup. have it drop down into the lifter valley if need be if
running no balance shaft.
 
Alternative is if someone would finally cast a new lower intake manifold to maximize the ability to run a monster core setup. have it drop down into the lifter valley if need be if
running no balance shaft.

The problem with that is the valley gets super narrow down there anyway, and width is the problem more so than length. I think really to get a "big enough" intercooler in there you have to go with a remote-mount and just have a custom manifold to direct the air out one side (probably snout side) and back in the other. Most likely have to rework the coolant passages to have room.

I don't know what the heat exchange capacity of a 6x6x3" intercooler is. But I do know that it's 100% irrelevant what the intercooler's heat exchange capacity is if you aren't pumping enough coolant through them to remove the heat. If you had water temp in and out data, we could do the math and figure out exactly whether it's a flow problem, a system capacity problem, or an intercooler size problem.

As to ice melting quickly...it won't. At least not compared to how fast your water will heat up. Ice will absorb 144 btu/lb in the melting process plus 1 BTU to make your system temp rise just 1 degree. That's the same heat capacity as 18.125 gallons of water. Let's be ultra conservative to figure out how much ice it would take under worst-case scenario to keep it cool for a pass.

Say your whipple car runs an 11 second flat 1/4 and let's pretend it's at the peak numbers from your log the entire run (53.4 lb/min and 390 degrees). Let's say we want to get that all the way to 100 degrees. So that's 53.4 lb/min * 11s/60s * (390F-100F) * .25 BTU = 709.775 BTUs required to cool that much airflow 290 degrees F for 11 seconds. It would only melt 4.928 lbs of ice during a pass to not see any temperature rise at all. A one-gallon container full of crushed ice is 4.95 lbs of ice. As opposed to adding one gallon of water to the system capacity...which would rise in temperature 88 degrees during the same run (not really, because intercooler efficiency would diminish as the temp went up, so it would probably end up at more like 50 degrees rise and higher intake temps towards the end). Don't underestimate the massive thermal capacity of phase-change cooling.

You're right though, it's pretty much a track/dyno only thing. Even with my chiller, I don't get the advantages of phase-change cooling. I haven't yet figured out how to incorporate an actual ice-maker to get that effect, but I do think it's possible...just going to be a trick to set up.
 

jdredd

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Jan 29, 2014
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The problem with that is the valley gets super narrow down there anyway, and width is the problem more so than length. I think really to get a "big enough" intercooler in there you have to go with a remote-mount and just have a custom manifold to direct the air out one side (probably snout side) and back in the other. Most likely have to rework the coolant passages to have room.

I don't know what the heat exchange capacity of a 6x6x3" intercooler is. But I do know that it's 100% irrelevant what the intercooler's heat exchange capacity is if you aren't pumping enough coolant through them to remove the heat. If you had water temp in and out data, we could do the math and figure out exactly whether it's a flow problem, a system capacity problem, or an intercooler size problem.

As to ice melting quickly...it won't. At least not compared to how fast your water will heat up. Ice will absorb 144 btu/lb in the melting process plus 1 BTU to make your system temp rise just 1 degree. That's the same heat capacity as 18.125 gallons of water. Let's be ultra conservative to figure out how much ice it would take under worst-case scenario to keep it cool for a pass.

Say your whipple car runs an 11 second flat 1/4 and let's pretend it's at the peak numbers from your log the entire run (53.4 lb/min and 390 degrees). Let's say we want to get that all the way to 100 degrees. So that's 53.4 lb/min * 11s/60s * (390F-100F) * .25 BTU = 709.775 BTUs required to cool that much airflow 290 degrees F for 11 seconds. It would only melt 4.928 lbs of ice during a pass to not see any temperature rise at all. A one-gallon container full of crushed ice is 4.95 lbs of ice. As opposed to adding one gallon of water to the system capacity...which would rise in temperature 88 degrees during the same run (not really, because intercooler efficiency would diminish as the temp went up, so it would probably end up at more like 50 degrees rise and higher intake temps towards the end). Don't underestimate the massive thermal capacity of phase-change cooling.

You're right though, it's pretty much a track/dyno only thing. Even with my chiller, I don't get the advantages of phase-change cooling. I haven't yet figured out how to incorporate an actual ice-maker to get that effect, but I do think it's possible...just going to be a trick to set up.

Ice helps I get... we ran that on a m90 car... melt a 5 lb bag of ice before the run was done. It worked well.

But for myself, i dont want to run ice... ever.. its a pita to deal with and doesnt help if you want to street the car
as you do at the track.

We have a small core considering if you compare to other platforms... heat exchanger up front is decent sized, but nothing monster. I dont have know the pump yet, so
i cant throw out math numbers.. But my feeling still stands, doesnt matter if i have a pump the size of a baby, the 6x6x3
core and little area to work with is biggest issue. You have 3 inchs of straight down travel to try and reduce the temps.
Then only ~6 inchs across to pressurize and go down.

Blower flowing at great speeds and having a low fin count on this spearco core doesn't help. I'd love to know the numbers on how long the air is actually in contact with the core at peak speeds.

We just don't have the room like the big boys to run a large core is all I am trying to get at.
I fully understand all the stuff your banging out. But if you slack on the core then just shooting yourself in the foot.
So I don't know how else better to put it.... don't slack on the core.
 

jdredd

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Jan 29, 2014
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All I'm saying is you don't know. You have a feeling that the core is too small. Bigger would be better, sure, but yours is huge by 3800 standards already. It would only take $100 worth of prosport water temp gauges to know for sure what your system is. You've already got all the other data.

I guess... but I still stand by that adding a few GPM in this case isn't going to help me much. To make night and day difference. Add Ice, sure... but that isnt in my own books to deal with.
Maybe see some increase with a bigger badder pump? who knows... probably. Heck its even a old pump too.

But I stand by the fact its a small core for a big blower running 24 psi. If it wasn't for e85
and overly built block, it be melted butter (well.. exploded butter probably) by now. It get's
0kr pretty much all the time.

I won't be touching anything on it anytime soon. It runs... its getting cold. And I am lazy.

So for now, ill just leave with "don't skimp on the intercooler core" :dunno:
 

turtleman

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Sep 6, 2009
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Villa Park, IL
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Does anyone have access to a fluid flow meter that could be used to sample ic coolant flow and do a little sciences? All this talk really makes me want to stack on a third plate and have a 3.5" thick by 6"long by 7.3" wide instead of the 2.25" that's currently the plan. It'd be a really simple change to make - problem is i'd pretty much need to put a cowl hood on the riv then...
 
Does anyone have access to a fluid flow meter that could be used to sample ic coolant flow and do a little sciences? All this talk really makes me want to stack on a third plate and have a 3.5" thick by 6"long by 7.3" wide instead of the 2.25" that's currently the plan. It'd be a really simple change to make - problem is i'd pretty much need to put a cowl hood on the riv then...

Do it. Accurate flow meters can be quite expensive though. Lots of them are going to be a "totalizer" not really a realtime rate meter. I think it would be easier to do water inlet/outlet temp and just calculate the flow rate by rise in water temp. Easy enough to do if you know approximate air mass flow and change in air temps across the core.
 
I guess... but I still stand by that adding a few GPM in this case isn't going to help me much. To make night and day difference. Add Ice, sure... but that isnt in my own books to deal with.
Maybe see some increase with a bigger badder pump? who knows... probably. Heck its even a old pump too.

But I stand by the fact its a small core for a big blower running 24 psi. If it wasn't for e85
and overly built block, it be melted butter (well.. exploded butter probably) by now. It get's
0kr pretty much all the time.

I won't be touching anything on it anytime soon. It runs... its getting cold. And I am lazy.

So for now, ill just leave with "don't skimp on the intercooler core" :dunno:

I agree you should pretty much always use the biggest core you can. But when you said Meziere, it instantly hit my red flag button. Those pumps just can't handle ANY backpressure.
 

jdredd

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Jan 29, 2014
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I agree you should pretty much always use the biggest core you can. But when you said Meziere, it instantly hit my red flag button. Those pumps just can't handle ANY backpressure.

I do want to get a new pump due to it being loud. Seems every
Meziere pump ive delt with is just a noisy bastard. Plus draws 5-6 amps.

Would be nice to find something quit and less amp draw but
equal to or better flow if going to do be doing it.

Bosch pumps are quite, but dont think those flow the GPM that is needed.
 
How is it even a question what pump to get. I mean just look at the chart. Would ya just look at it? Lol. But the WP29 is going to draw a lot of current. Unless you get the version that is limited to 9 amps. I think they are pretty quiet but I can hook mine up to a bucket and take a video later if you want. As well as measure free flow amp draw. If amperage is that big an issue, just get a controller for it.
 

jdredd

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Jan 29, 2014
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How is it even a question what pump to get. I mean just look at the chart. Would ya just look at it? Lol. But the WP29 is going to draw a lot of current. Unless you get the version that is limited to 9 amps. I think they are pretty quiet but I can hook mine up to a bucket and take a video later if you want. As well as measure free flow amp draw. If amperage is that big an issue, just get a controller for it.

WP29 even made anymore? Looks to be WP32 is what is available now?
 
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