3800 F-body to TKO 600 swap R&D is officially in progress! After driving myself completely nuts with a few measurements, a TON of poorly constructed documents from other car clubs, and a little bit of actual research, I pulled the trigger on a couple parts to start swapping a GOOD manual transmission into my Camaro. I have my doubts that this is going to end up being as easy as it panned out in my head, but the goal is to do this with a very minimal amount of custom fabrication.
Here's the beginning of what is likely to be a very boring thread, but the results should be epic!
On the way is a 2.8/3.1L F-body T5 bell housing. What's the reason for this one in particular? Let me take a deep breath....
The stock F-body 3.8 T5 uses a Ford case. That's right. Don't believe what you see online. The 4th Gen T5 is actually a completely different animal in relation to the "Camaro T5" that you read about on all the hot rod forums, Mustang pages, ect. The dead giveaway is the bolt pattern between the bell and the trans case, but other differences include a 26 spline input shaft, and hydraulic release bearing. This feeds the next question. Why not buy a Ford style TKO instead of changing out the bell then? For some reason, Tremec used a special pattern just for the Ford TKO which requires a custom bell. This is no problem for Ford guys, but we're talking about a Camaro that came with a FACTORY Ford transmission mated to a Buick V6. Good luck finding that on Quick Time's website!
SO! GM style TKO is probably our best bet. The Ford style trans to 3800 conversion HAS been done before while using a customized 94-95 S10 bell. There are a couple old and broken forum posts from a guy who was 3800 swapping Chrysler Conquest. I do not believe the car was ever finished though, so I'm still in the dark. What I do know is that the GM style TKO is meant to work with the old school Muncie bells. Lucky for me, the "GM T5" pattern is also a Muncie pattern, so I need a bell with that and the 3800 pattern on the other end.
I'm not sure who needs to hear this, but I'm putting it to rest. Call it what you want, but the 3800 is a Buick V6. There is hardly anything that remained the same about them between the "odd-fire" and the Series III, but the same could be said about a Gen 1 and Gen 5 small block Chevy, right? How should the 3800 be treated in terms of transmission swaps? Think of it as a 60 degree V6 (2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3100, 3400, 3500, 3900) with a driver side starter motor. The bolt pattern IS the same on a 3800 and N* despite having 90 degree configurations. This is why I prefer to say "metric pattern" instead of "60 degree" It avoids confusion and know-it-alls. That being said, the 3800 may be a Buick engine and may not use the Chevy pattern, but the 3800 does NOT have a B.O.P.C pattern. That went away in the 80s and it's never been back. I doubt anybody here was confused about that, but I've seen some really funky and false stuff in my research.
This narrows all my T5 bell housing options down to only S10 2.8L or Camaro/Firebird 2.8/3.1L units. The S10 orients the transmission straight up and down like the TKO requires, but it's missing the driver side starter pocket. The 3rd Gen F-body has dual pockets. I don't know why, but I'm super stoked about it. Despite having the "canted" pattern, a straight up and down pattern is also partially drilled! Again, I have no idea why GM would have done that, but I'm extremely glad they did! Now I just need to finish drilling/tapping those so that the TKO bolts up!
There you go. That's why I wanted THIS bell.
This is not the "golden ticket" though. I still have some unknowns to clear. The big win is going to be measuring the depth and finding it to be shorter than my stock bell. The TKO input shaft is shorter than my stock '02 Camaro T5 shaft, so I'm REALLY hoping that this new bell is also shorter. I have a very positive vision though. I cannot confirm any of this, but it seems that all the T5 input shaft length differences are negligible as long as they share the same spline count. The 14 spline unit that came on older S10s were pretty darn short. The 26 spline V8 F-body shafts were longer. I have very little that proves or disproves that the 14 spline F-body input shafts are the same length as the S10, but I certainly cannot find anything that says otherwise. The worst case scenario is that this new bell is just as deep as my stock one and requires a custom pilot bushing that sticks out about a half inch. I wouldn't like it, and I'd prefer to use an actual bearing; however, it wouldn't be the end of the world. The best case scenario is that it just works, but I'm betting on needing a bell spacer plate which is sold in many different sizes from many different places.
Much much more to come!
Wish me luck!
Here's the beginning of what is likely to be a very boring thread, but the results should be epic!
On the way is a 2.8/3.1L F-body T5 bell housing. What's the reason for this one in particular? Let me take a deep breath....
The stock F-body 3.8 T5 uses a Ford case. That's right. Don't believe what you see online. The 4th Gen T5 is actually a completely different animal in relation to the "Camaro T5" that you read about on all the hot rod forums, Mustang pages, ect. The dead giveaway is the bolt pattern between the bell and the trans case, but other differences include a 26 spline input shaft, and hydraulic release bearing. This feeds the next question. Why not buy a Ford style TKO instead of changing out the bell then? For some reason, Tremec used a special pattern just for the Ford TKO which requires a custom bell. This is no problem for Ford guys, but we're talking about a Camaro that came with a FACTORY Ford transmission mated to a Buick V6. Good luck finding that on Quick Time's website!
SO! GM style TKO is probably our best bet. The Ford style trans to 3800 conversion HAS been done before while using a customized 94-95 S10 bell. There are a couple old and broken forum posts from a guy who was 3800 swapping Chrysler Conquest. I do not believe the car was ever finished though, so I'm still in the dark. What I do know is that the GM style TKO is meant to work with the old school Muncie bells. Lucky for me, the "GM T5" pattern is also a Muncie pattern, so I need a bell with that and the 3800 pattern on the other end.
I'm not sure who needs to hear this, but I'm putting it to rest. Call it what you want, but the 3800 is a Buick V6. There is hardly anything that remained the same about them between the "odd-fire" and the Series III, but the same could be said about a Gen 1 and Gen 5 small block Chevy, right? How should the 3800 be treated in terms of transmission swaps? Think of it as a 60 degree V6 (2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3100, 3400, 3500, 3900) with a driver side starter motor. The bolt pattern IS the same on a 3800 and N* despite having 90 degree configurations. This is why I prefer to say "metric pattern" instead of "60 degree" It avoids confusion and know-it-alls. That being said, the 3800 may be a Buick engine and may not use the Chevy pattern, but the 3800 does NOT have a B.O.P.C pattern. That went away in the 80s and it's never been back. I doubt anybody here was confused about that, but I've seen some really funky and false stuff in my research.
This narrows all my T5 bell housing options down to only S10 2.8L or Camaro/Firebird 2.8/3.1L units. The S10 orients the transmission straight up and down like the TKO requires, but it's missing the driver side starter pocket. The 3rd Gen F-body has dual pockets. I don't know why, but I'm super stoked about it. Despite having the "canted" pattern, a straight up and down pattern is also partially drilled! Again, I have no idea why GM would have done that, but I'm extremely glad they did! Now I just need to finish drilling/tapping those so that the TKO bolts up!
There you go. That's why I wanted THIS bell.
This is not the "golden ticket" though. I still have some unknowns to clear. The big win is going to be measuring the depth and finding it to be shorter than my stock bell. The TKO input shaft is shorter than my stock '02 Camaro T5 shaft, so I'm REALLY hoping that this new bell is also shorter. I have a very positive vision though. I cannot confirm any of this, but it seems that all the T5 input shaft length differences are negligible as long as they share the same spline count. The 14 spline unit that came on older S10s were pretty darn short. The 26 spline V8 F-body shafts were longer. I have very little that proves or disproves that the 14 spline F-body input shafts are the same length as the S10, but I certainly cannot find anything that says otherwise. The worst case scenario is that this new bell is just as deep as my stock one and requires a custom pilot bushing that sticks out about a half inch. I wouldn't like it, and I'd prefer to use an actual bearing; however, it wouldn't be the end of the world. The best case scenario is that it just works, but I'm betting on needing a bell spacer plate which is sold in many different sizes from many different places.
Much much more to come!
Wish me luck!
