2020 Cadillac CT4-V, CT5-V revealed

[Lead Pipe]

Caddy is making their cars looks cheap now? As for the V thing, I don't think the fire breathing LT4 V was selling all that well. I can't remember the last time I saw one on the street. As with all new GM offerings, yawn fest.

 

[nytebyte]

I think we'd need to see them in person before passing judgment.
Some cars look much better in real life than in pictures.

I think they look OK, but I agree they need more pah.
Those numbers are a bit weak.

 

[jason05gt]

Very odd they didn’t simply call it a V-Sport, which is what this seems most like.

I thought the same thing.

350hp from their performance variant is underwhelming too. Lincoln's Ecoboost 3.0TT makes 400 hp and so does the Q50 Red Sport. Cadillac needs something to stand out as the design and interior looks pretty bland. It's almost as if GM is giving up on the brand in North America.

 

[Yaj Yak]

maybe it's underrated.

 

[Yaj Yak]

caddy "giving up"



lincoln gave up LOOOOONG ago.

 

[Kensington]

caddy "giving up"



lincoln gave up LOOOOONG ago.

They made an effort with the Continental, but it fell short, and came out when sedans were trending down.

The Navi has been a great boon for them, and their other SUV's seem to be doing well. Their sedans leave....a bit to be desired the 3.0TT MKZ is definitely interesting, but it's not a great car by any means...

That being said, I have no idea why these Caddy's aren't "V-sports", seems like an odd decision. Are they going to create a higher trim V? Like a V-RS like car? And I would agree that it seems like Caddy is diluting the V brand, which they spent almost a couple decades now building.

 

[CMNTMXR57]

Caddy is making their cars looks cheap now? As for the V thing, I don't think the fire breathing LT4 V was selling all that well. I can't remember the last time I saw one on the street. As with all new GM offerings, yawn fest.

The CTS-V was never meant to be a large volume seller. It was a "Halo" car.

Regular CTS's are the volume car and those weren't selling well either, but the fire breathing LT4 version was never meant to sell 50k units a year.

I would wager though, that used current gen CTS-V's are going to hold their value, just like the 1st gens seem to.

 

[CMNTMXR57]

They made an effort with the Continental, but it fell short, and came out when sedans were trending down.

The Navi has been a great boon for them, and their other SUV's seem to be doing well. Their sedans leave....a bit to be desired the 3.0TT MKZ is definitely interesting, but it's not a great car by any means...

That being said, I have no idea why these Caddy's aren't "V-sports", seems like an odd decision. Are they going to create a higher trim V? Like a V-RS like car? And I would agree that it seems like Caddy is diluting the V brand, which they spent almost a couple decades now building.

There is supposed to be a CT6-V with the Blackwing V8.

Stock from the factory though, it still seems a little weak compared to the current CTS-V. But you know being TT, it'll be a monster once the aftermarket gets ahold of it.

 

[jason05gt]

caddy "giving up"



lincoln gave up LOOOOONG ago.

Lincoln has been crushing it with their SUV's. They look great and also have been getting solid reviews from the press.

Caddy is a dead brand in my opinion. They have no strategy. Their strategy was to chase BMW, even reverse engineering BMW's in the past. What Cadillac doesn't understand is that people buy luxury cars on style, refinement, and interiors (including tech). Cadillac did put together dynamic platforms in terms of handling, but they had shitty interiors and tired styling.

For example, recent BMW's have been chastised in the press as softer and less driver focused but I don't see sales being impacted. BMW is chasing volume and not necessarily enthusiasts anymore, which is what Cadillac should have done 10 years ago.

 

[Yaj Yak]

i mean, someone bump the navigator/expedition boner thread with current sales numbers and how much theyve taken away from escalade/denali's/tahoes/etc

 

[CMNTMXR57]

None! I mean, I'm sure they made a small dent, but not anything monumental. I know when these new versions first came out, people thought they were taking away from GM, but GM K2 sales were also still up YoY. So...

When I get a chance I will.

 

[Omicron]

 

[YoushallgoFo]

All depends on how they price it. Do they have that estimated anywhere? Maybe they're gunna make V like audi does with S and then have another trim above it. Like RS. RV? Lol

 

[jason05gt]

None! I mean, I'm sure they made a small dent, but not anything monumental. I know when these new versions first came out, people thought they were taking away from GM, but GM K2 sales were also still up YoY. So...

When I get a chance I will.

Cadillac Discounts Escalade By $7,500 In April 2019 | GM Authority


Cadillac Escalade sales decreased 16 percent to 6,819 units in the first quarter of 2019. The results significantly underperform its segment, which is far from ideal given the Escalade’s importance to GM’s bottom line (the vehicle is believe to be GM’s most profitable vehicle).

Read more: Cadillac Discounts Escalade By $7,500 In April 2019 | GM Authority


GM is throwing a lot of money on the hoods of these cars. Up to $12K earlier in the year.

 

[CMNTMXR57]

Because they're overpriced...

GM doesn't offer sales (deliveries as they used to post on their website) anymore. So I can't get the numbers requested.

However, going back through 2018 (I know, that's sooo yesterday), but would've been still in the meat of fords new Expo/Navi barrage,

Combined sales of the Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban and the GMC Yukon full-size SUVs were up 12 percent. The Cadillac Escalade was up 2 percent.

Which leads me to believe that it isn't so much that Cadillac is getting beat up by the Lincoln, rather it's own stablemates. People are opting for more uplevel GMC Denali's and RST/Platinum trim Tahoe's/Suburban's and getting 98% of the Escalade for much less.

https://investor.gm.com/news-releas...red-nearly-700000-vehicles-and-record-average

 

[CMNTMXR57]

And driving around the more affluent areas of Geneva/St. Charles as I do for many hours on the weekends for the second job, GM is absolutely slaughtering the ford twins.

I will see 40 K2 Escalades to 1 or 2 Navigator's. Tahoe's and Suburban's are in to the triple digits. Vs. 4 or 5 new Expeditions. Every other driveway has a foreign luxury SUV or one of the GM K2's. And then to add further, those Navigators I do see, typically have Livery plates on them vs. very few Livery plated Escalades. Which means private consumers are buying them vs. a limo company.

 

[jason05gt]

The last I read, Lincoln and Ford were constrained by production. Ford's average transaction price has increased for both.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-expedition-lincoln-navigator-production-increases/

This was not trivially easy to do, as the Kentucky Truck Plant in Louisville (which also makes Ford F-Series Super Duty trucks) has been running pretty much at capacity since the new all-aluminum Expedition and Navigator launched at the end of 2017. But these new utes are finally good enough to give the GM jumbos a run for their money. As a result, demand has risen sharply—retail Expedition sales are up 35 percent (improving market share by 5.6 percentage points, to 17.5 percent) while total Navigator sales are up 70 percent. This greater-than-anticipated increase in demand necessitated a 20 percent bump in production capacity last summer (combined production of the two utes ended up increasing 62.4 percent from 2017 to 2018). And that's still not enough—the company is rolling out yet another 20 percent increase this summer. How is Ford doing this in a plant that's officially been "at capacity" from the beginning?

 

[CMNTMXR57]

Again, no one here is disputing that they're gaining in sales. That's not hard to do when you leave a product to languish for 20 years. The issue was, people here said it was going to come out of GM's chunk of the sales (which most put somewhere between 75% - 80% of the full-size SUV market), and I don't think it's made the dent people were anticipating. GM sales of theirs are also up over the entire full-size SUV product line, as are ATP's despite cash on the hood (which again, we all know they're overpriced to begin with...).

This leads me to believe that more of the gain is coming out of the Toyota and Nissan segment, taking away sales from the Aramada/QX and the Land Cruiser more so than it is the GM juggernaut

The Arlington, TX plant has been working 3 shifts for years trying to keep up with demand for the K2's and even the 900's before it, especially after Janesville stopped making them. So GM is constrained in some form also. Some can be sourced from the Silao, Mexico plant if need be, but once GM stopped selling the 3/4 ton version of the Suburban (which is where GM had most of those made), they all now come from Arlington and the Silao plant simply supplies Mexico and Central America.

 

[jason05gt]

Again, no one here is disputing that they're gaining in sales. That's not hard to do when you leave a product to languish for 20 years. The issue was, people here said it was going to come out of GM's chunk of the sales (which most put somewhere between 75% - 80% of the full-size SUV market), and I don't think it's made the dent people were anticipating. GM sales of theirs are also up over the entire full-size SUV product line, as are ATP's despite cash on the hood (which again, we all know they're overpriced to begin with...).

This leads me to believe that more of the gain is coming out of the Toyota and Nissan segment, taking away sales from the Aramada/QX and the Land Cruiser more so than it is the GM juggernaut

The Arlington, TX plant has been working 3 shifts for years trying to keep up with demand for the K2's and even the 900's before it, especially after Janesville stopped making them. So GM is constrained in some form also. Some can be sourced from the Silao, Mexico plant if need be, but once GM stopped selling the 3/4 ton version of the Suburban (which is where GM had most of those made), they all now come from Arlington and the Silao plant simply supplies Mexico and Central America.

GM putting that amount of cash on the hood tells me that Ford/Lincoln are stealing sales from Chevy/Cadillac. If they weren't they would take the $12K per vehicle to the bottom line.

 

[CMNTMXR57]

GM, on average, offers 10% - 15% in allowances/cash on Full-Size SUV's. That's is a fairly consistent amount that has been going on for a long time. It isn't something that has drastically spiked in recent.

One of GM's big things is reducing the amount of cash back/allowances across the board on all vehicles trying to drive up ATP's.

 

[Thirdgen89GTA]

So now we can have a V+ because they watered down the V?

Should have just called them V-Sport, instead of "V".

https://jalopnik.com/more-track-capable-cadillac-v-series-models-are-on-the-1835184191

 

[Rent Free]

So now we can have a V+ because they watered down the V?

Should have just called them V-Sport, instead of "V".

https://jalopnik.com/more-track-capable-cadillac-v-series-models-are-on-the-1835184191

This just might be even more of an abortion than the botched 6th gen camaro front end refresh and everyone said WTF is that so GM scrambled to redo it again and move the bowtie back to the upper grill instead of in the middle of the bumper.

I used to be a GM fan but other than the next Vette nothing seems that appealing anymore.

 

[CMNTMXR57]

On Friday night at dinner, I told the Wife that Cadillac just neutered the V cars. Even she was like... "WTF!"

So I struck a pre-emptive bargain with her. I said I want one of these last CTS-V's, with the fuel swilling, environmental ozone hole blasting, LT4's before prices go nutty when people try to lock them up... She was in agreement. Now granted, I would have to part with the STS. But I think it's a fair trade...

 

[P40E]

I think Cadillac has recaptured the "older" generation market again with newer version cts , ct6 , xts . The new lineup revamp is almost like they are making their cars more mainstream . I honestly think a true dedicated cadillac owner will be ok with these engine options , it might even make a car more attainable for them .

 

[CMNTMXR57]

This popped up today on my feed...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/cadillacs-president-wasnt-surprised-lukewarm-153200835.html

Last year, Johan de Nysschen abruptly left his position as president of Cadillac after four years at the helm. Early in his tenure, the brand moved its headquarters to New York City from Detroit; in September, it announced it was moving back to Michigan. A few months after that, GM said it would shutter a number of plants in the US, including the Detroit-Hamtramck plant that produces Cadillac's flagship CT6 sedan. Then earlier this summer, Cadillac introduced new V-series versions of its CT4 and CT5 sedans (pictured above) that have a lot less power, and seemingly less race-track capability than the old ATS- and CTS-V.

All worrying for a brand that, in the last few years, developed serious enthusiast credentials. It seemed those might go away, with Cadillac being forced to conform to what's happening elsewhere in GM.

Steve Carlisle, the former GM Canada head who replaced De Nysschen last year, doesn't think we should be concerned. Last week at the Washington D.C. first drive of the new XT6 SUV, we spoke with Carlisle about the future of the brand, more specifically its performance cars.

Where the V-series versions of the ATS and CTS were full-on rivals to BMW M and Mercedes-AMG's best, the new Vs are mid-tier offerings. Many were confused by the move, especially after Cadillac had pretty well established what a V-series car represented.

"The visceral reaction to that—maybe not in a good way—before you tell the whole story, it's pretty amazing," Carlisle said. "It just tells you how much emotion that there is around these performance sedans."

"You can always have steps and gradations in terms of what you offer, and who you make it accessible to, and how," he continued. "And that's really where we're going."

Carlisle said he wasn't surprised by the mixed reaction to the new Vs. "It's been a bit, kind of fun," he said with some humility. But there is more to come. Shortly after debuting the new CT4- and CT5-V, Cadillac brought camouflaged prototypes of hotter versions of the two new sedans to the Detroit Grand Prix last month. Carlisle wouldn't reveal any specific details on these upcoming models, but he did hint at a name, when the subject of the brand's new 4.2-liter twin-turbo dual-overhead-cam V-8, called Blackwing, came up.

"The engine is one question, but the idea of Blackwing is another question," he said. "You can literally equate it with the engine, or you can equate it with the concept high-performance track-capable. So then what can we do with the Blackwing?"

Ever since the higher-performance versions of the CT4- and CT5-V were first teased, there's been a rumor floating around that they will carry the "Blackwing" moniker. Carlisle didn't confirm anything to us, but don't be surprised if this is actually the case.

Our colleagues at Car and Driver were at the Detroit Grand Prix when the two sedans were paraded out, and report that the CT4-V sounded like it had a V-6 while the CT5-V's noise was that of a V-8. At the XT6 event, a Cadillac engineer also wouldn't rule out the possibility of a manual for the CT4-V, just as there was with the old ATS-V.

It's unclear if the CT5-V will get the new twin-turbo V-8. Right now, the future of that engine is a little unclear. It was developed in house by Cadillac, and is currently offered in the CT6 Platinum and CT6-V. While the CT6 is confirmed to continue production in China for that market, the big sedan's American future has yet to be decided. Anything beyond January 2020—when Hamtramck is scheduled to close—is "tied up, to a great extent with [United Auto Workers] negotiations," Carlisle said.

Before you let your imagination run wild, no, we won't see this V-8 in the C8 Corvette. Carlisle said the first time he was asked if Cadillac would share the new V-8 with other GM brands, he replied, "over my dead body."

And if the CT6 dies in America, that doesn't spell an immediate end for the V-8. "There's lots of things we could do with it," Carlisle said, though he had no specific plans to announce.

This V-8 also signals the sort of engineering work that will be undertaken at Cadillac in the future. "When it comes to powertrains and propulsion, that's a heart and soul kind of thing. It's the DNA of a car," Carlisle said. "From a Cadillac perspective, there are certain things that need to be exclusive to Cadillac."

And while not all Cadillac products will get exclusive engines—the CT4-V, for example, shares its 2.7-liter turbo-four with the new Chevrolet Silverado—they will have Cadillac touches. "The powertrains and propulsion that we use, there will always be a distinctive Cadillac element to them. There just has to be," Carlisle said.

The Cadillac boss told us that performance SUVs are on the table—"I say why not?"—but he concedes they could never replace true sports sedans. "You're dealing with higher [centers of gravity], weight distributions, everything like that," he said.

As Cadillac is charged with rolling out more, and better, SUVs, Carlisle has no intention to abandon the V brand. "You can't meet better advocates for our brand anyway than V-series customers," he said. There's also engineering value in these relatively low-volume cars. "It pushes us. It makes the mainstream cars better when pushing yourselves on that envelope," Carlisle said.

You get the impression that things are brighter at Cadillac than they seemed. And best of all, it's not abandoning cars that show BMW M and Mercedes-AMG that America can make a real sports sedan.