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It's a two way street man. If you go over the top to try to harm a police officer, the cops aren't going to still try to figure out a non-violent way to take you out. You went over the top, the cops also took it over the top to make you a non-threat.
I guess it is a moot point. No one can convince me that it was not excessive. Try all you want.
I agree with you.
If the Chicago Police shot every suspect armed with a crowbar/bat 10 times then there would be alot more dead assholes in Chicago. I think one shot would have been sufficient as a first step. Then go from there if that didnt stop him.
No, that is not how it works.
The cop freezes time, next he analyzes the weight of the large deadly weapon in the perps hands, he then calculates the amount of time it will take to complete a swing with that weapon, based on that information he determines the probability being able to hit the perp while he is swinging, then he figures out if he releases the dog will the dog successfully disarm the perp, he then determines what type of damage would be taken by the dog/police officer if the perp is not disarmed. If the damage to the police officer or dog is anything less than death he should just release the dog and not shoot.
It is very simple really.
I agree with you.
If the Chicago Police shot every suspect armed with a crowbar/bat 10 times then there would be alot more dead assholes in Chicago. I think one shot would have been sufficient as a first step. Then go from there if that didnt stop him.
edit: Not sayin that Chicago PO's have not shot people who were not actually threats, just sayin it would be a whole lot more.
Honestly, we both said the exact same thing, you just spelled it out word for word.
But in the real world situation like so, he only has seconds, if not, milliseconds to gauge that threat level. Immediate threat to his colleague = immediate level of force which basically results in firing his weapon. Then see above as 10 shots(5 between the two) was execessive.
I have yearly training in risk management and escalation of force that I'm required to have a class for. It actually gets annoying having to hear the same thing over and over but there is always one Marine who fucks it all up.
What's the standard issue firearm for chicago PO's?
Not saying getting shot is "no big deal", but if the guy got hit in the face with a tazer and brushed it off, I'd imagine it would take more than non-lethal (ala Leg/stomach as they are trained to do IIRC) shot or 2 to really stop him. I haven't watched the video yet, so I don't know how fast the successive shots were fired.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department#EquipmentEquipment
All Chicago Police officers must buy their own duty gear. This includes a uniform, sidearm, handcuffs, light, baton, etc. Each officer receives an annual uniform allowance of $1,800 to do so.
The sidearm must meet the following requirements:
Be manufactured by Beretta, Glock, Ruger, SIG Sauer, Smith & Wesson, or Springfield Armory.
Be chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.
Be Double-Action Only, Hammer or Striker-Fired.
Officers who were in the department before 1996 may keep their old DA/SA or SAO pistols, as well as their Smith and Wesson or Ruger revolvers in .38 Special. Recruits choose Springfield Armory, Smith and Wesson, or Glock pistols. They must be chambered in 9 mm until the recruit's 18-month probationary period is over.
I totally agree with, my sarcasm did not translate.
No, that is not how it works.
The cop freezes time, next he analyzes the weight of the large deadly weapon in the perps hands, he then calculates the amount of time it will take to complete a swing with that weapon, based on that information he determines the probability being able to hit the perp while he is swinging, then he figures out if he releases the dog will the dog successfully disarm the perp, he then determines what type of damage would be taken by the dog/police officer if the perp is not disarmed. If the damage to the police officer or dog is anything less than death he should just release the dog and not shoot.
It is very simple really.
It is very simple. The officer doesn't have to get out a pen and paper and draw out different scenarios. He should be able to do all that without the benefit of freezing time. These guys face these situations all the time. I have a difficult time believing it was everyone's first day on the job, but their actions seem to show just that.
You wanting the police officer to make very drawn out thoughts, analyzing every aspect of the situation in a matter of seconds is irrational. These are not situations encountered on a frequent basis.
The officer does not have that luxury and any hesitation on his part can result in him or his fellow officers being badly hurt/killed. So they error on the side of caution and shoot a man with a deadly weapon who is threatening them.
I don't think you're giving police officers enough credit as to how many decisions they can make in their head on the fly. I think these guys just said "F*ck it, I'm just going to shoot the guy."
I think they do make quick/calculated decisions in their heads. The problem is they cannot be drawn out, the situation dictates so. The only thing I will say is that the second group of shots was over the top. Once the perp dropped he should have been held at gunpoint until the ambulance arrived. I am pretty confident in saying that the first group of shots would have killed him anyway.
What's the standard issue firearm for chicago PO's?
Not saying getting shot is "no big deal", but if the guy got hit in the face with a tazer and brushed it off, I'd imagine it would take more than non-lethal (ala Leg/stomach as they are trained to do IIRC) shot or 2 to really stop him. I haven't watched the video yet, so I don't know how fast the successive shots were fired.
My argument is that I think the dog could have unarmed the guy. I don't think it was a death sentence. These aren't your next door neighbor's dogs. These are highly trained animals.
I would love to speak to a K9 officer to get their input on this type of scenario.
I'm arguing that the police did not exhaust all other options before shooting.
You forgot to add the part where the suspect was in close proximity, moving towards the officer with the bat/crowbar cocked back ready to swing.
wrong wrong wrong. there is ABSOLUTELY no such thing as a non-lethal GSW. when you pull that weapon and pull that trigger, you are shooting center of mass, and using deadly force. There is no such training in any legit book or class. Where ever you 'remember' that from is horse shit.
10 shots was a bit excessive, we all agree. The UNARMED dog was rightfully kept out of imminent danger, most of us agree. The guy made poor choices and paid dearly for them. He should have known what would happen. This may even be an intentional suicide by cop. Those are more common than you think
^ I agree, I was always told that cops can only shoot to kill.
^ I agree, I was always told that cops can only shoot to kill.
I guess it is a moot point. No one can convince me that it was not excessive. Try all you want.
That is true. When I took criminal justice classes my police officer told me this. When people have so much adrenaline and or drugs pumping through their body it is hard to stop them. You can shoot them a ton of times in the arms and legs and sometimes they wont stop what they are doing. For example: He told us of a time when he came up on a scene where a guy was sitting on top of a women just stabbing her over and over. They told him to stop and drop the weapon and he acted like they weren't even there. He was in such a rage and determined to keep stabbing this girl. They kept shooting him all over and he wouldn't stop until they got him in the heart. I think he ended up stabbing her something like 70 times. So that's why they always go for the kill shot or shoot it till it's dead.
And this guy was possibly on something like PCP. A normal person would drop to the ground if they were tazed. This guy just ripped them out. If I were a cop I would be scared shitless of someone like this. Sometimes it takes 10+ cops to subdue someone like that.
The taser was most likely ineffective due to the thick coat. The prongs must make contact with skin to work. Fabric is not a conductor. Just for an FYI. I agree with the rest of your post.
If you watch it shows him being shot with the taser in the face, pulling the prongs out, and keep walking.