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Old 05-23-2019, 10:48 AM   #1
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Default Report says China is killing the planet, not U.S.

A new report confirms findings last year that China's eastern provinces are putting banned CFC-11s into the air and destroying the ozone layer.

Scientists couldn't figure out why emissions were rising, did some atmospheric testing and found China is behind the pollution. Seems it's cheaper to use CFC-11s in foam production so... China.

This is in direct violation of the Montreal Accords which China signed.

This report is very boring, very detailed in methods used. I'll post the link below for those of you who like wading through data.

Quote:
When compared to the AGAGE-derived or NOAA-derived increase in global emissions, our estimated rise for eastern mainland China accounts for 64 32% or 41 20% of the total, respectively. However, given that our increase in global emissions may be overestimated by up to a factor of two, owing to unaccounted-for changes in atmospheric dynamics3, the fraction of the global emission increase accounted for by eastern mainland China may actually be substantially higher. Hence, these results demonstrate that increased emissions from eastern mainland China since 2012 can account for a large fraction of the concurrent rise in global emissions. However, we cannot rule out additional, but probably smaller, increases from other parts of the world (for example, northern, southern and western Asia, Africa and South America), potentially including other parts of China, to which our current measurement networks are insensitive.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1193-4

In related news, environmental protesters are taking the Green New Deal over to China where it belongs? (No, they're not. They still want us to cut our emissions and aren't saying anything about the pollution China is spewing into the atmosphere.)

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Old 05-23-2019, 10:54 AM   #2
 
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Wow...talk about BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:02 AM   #3
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Everybody knows?

Then why the Green New Deal?

Why isn't the new report all over the MSM? If it was the U.S. that was spewing the pollutants, it would be.

Why isn't AOC screaming out loud in her garden "China! Stop polluting my veggies!"
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:13 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Flyn View Post
This report is very boring, very detailed in methods used. I'll post the link below for those of you who like wading through data.
as opposed to your normal deep exploration of the veracity of data?

Quote:
In related news, environmental protesters are taking the Green New Deal over to China where it belongs? (No, they're not. They still want us to cut our emissions and aren't saying anything about the pollution China is spewing into the atmosphere.)
what is your claim here, that AOC doesn't care about how much china pollutes?
that china must cut its pollution before the US cuts any of its own?
that the US congress can make policy for china and force china to accept it?

do any of the tariffs or trade talks center around china improving pollution metrics? seems you are faulting pie in the sky AOC for not doing things your boy has a much greater and direct connection to, yet afaik he's not doing shit either.
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:24 AM   #5
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I think everyone knows this, the US mainly catches flack because our per capita pollution is much worse than China. Even then, our per capita pollution isn't as high as some other developed nations (sweden, canada, saudi arabia etc). But those nations just happen to have much lower populations than the USA.

I really do think that people are going after the wrong things when it comes to the climate, hence why I have no faith that humankind will ever be able to make real change.


https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warmin...re-of-co2.html
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:25 AM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by Flyn View Post
Everybody knows?

Then why the Green New Deal?

Why isn't the new report all over the MSM? If it was the U.S. that was spewing the pollutants, it would be.

Why isn't AOC screaming out loud in her garden "China! Stop polluting my veggies!"
I think AOC and the Green New Deal folks are all but brain dead. Its just silly to me people are even doing "studies" to find out China is polluting the shit out of the planet. Spend a day in China or India...and you instantly realize how asinine it is that we think getting rid of plastic straws will save the planet.

I'd be shocked if AOC has ever even stepped foot in China.
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Old 05-23-2019, 11:32 AM   #7
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So because I'm curious of the mint/Flyn love affair going on, I started looking up some hard numbers on overall air pollution.

Everyone loves numbers, right?

Pure particulate matter as a whole. Why China is hazey. The actual matter that affects humans and causes issues, a report from 2017:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...lectricity-use

Quote:
There are many ways to measure air pollution, but a key indicator is called "PM 2.5" — one of the most harmful classes of airborne pollutants.

The "PM" stands for "particulate matter," and the "2.5" stands for 2.5 microns in diameter or smaller — roughly the size of a single bacterium. Such pollution, as Business Insider's Lydia Ramsey explained in 2016, "is especially dangerous because it can get lodged in the lungs and cause long-term health problems like asthma and chronic lung disease."

When PM 2.5 levels go above roughly 35 micrograms per cubic meter of air, it can become a major health problem. The WHO recommends keeping PM 2.5 levels to about 10 micrograms per cubic meter.

While Chinese cities have recently hit more than 500 micrograms of PM 2.5 per cubic meter, Saudi Arabia, on a per-country average, has the most toxic air in the world.

Going based solely off of the numbers I see above, the US is a nation of some of the LOWEST air pollution at 8 μg/cm of PM2.5

Here's a report from this year indicating China's level has risen to 61 μg/cm of PM2.5.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...vel-rises-52pc

Quote:
The nation’s average PM2.5 reading came in at 61 micrograms per cubic metre for January and February, according to a Ministry of Ecology and Environment survey of 337 cities, with only 83 reaching the national standard of 35mcg.
Based on the picture above, China at 61 μg/cm would put them at equal to Libya at the 10 spot.

Let's say, mint and Flyn kissed and made up and figured out a way tomorrow to slash 10% of emissions IMMEDIATELY from every country on Earth.

Would the US at 8 μg/cm and dropping .8 μg/cm make a larger dent? Or would China at 61 μg/cm with a reduction of 6.1 μg/cm (almost the ENTIRETY OF THE US AIR POLLUTION) make a larger difference world wide?

This is why the GND, Paris accord, "carbon credits" that disproportionately affect ONLY WEALTHY first world nations that do nothing but put more money into the hands of politicians, is a world wide scam.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:25 PM   #8
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^^Mint', see above information. Proves your argument is like a plane with its tail shot off spinning down to the ocean. With AC/DC playing.

Splash.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sickmint79 View Post
as opposed to your normal deep exploration of the veracity of data?



what is your claim here, that AOC doesn't care about how much china pollutes?
that china must cut its pollution before the US cuts any of its own?
that the US congress can make policy for china and force china to accept it?

do any of the tariffs or trade talks center around china improving pollution metrics? seems you are faulting pie in the sky AOC for not doing things your boy has a much greater and direct connection to, yet afaik he's not doing shit either.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
So because I'm curious of the mint/Flyn love affair going on, I started looking up some hard numbers on overall air pollution.

Everyone loves numbers, right?

Pure particulate matter as a whole. Why China is hazey. The actual matter that affects humans and causes issues, a report from 2017:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...lectricity-use



Going based solely off of the numbers I see above, the US is a nation of some of the LOWEST air pollution at 8 μg/cm of PM2.5

Here's a report from this year indicating China's level has risen to 61 μg/cm of PM2.5.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...vel-rises-52pc



Based on the picture above, China at 61 μg/cm would put them at equal to Libya at the 10 spot.

Let's say, mint and Flyn kissed and made up and figured out a way tomorrow to slash 10% of emissions IMMEDIATELY from every country on Earth.

Would the US at 8 μg/cm and dropping .8 μg/cm make a larger dent? Or would China at 61 μg/cm with a reduction of 6.1 μg/cm (almost the ENTIRETY OF THE US AIR POLLUTION) make a larger difference world wide?

This is why the GND, Paris accord, "carbon credits" that disproportionately affect ONLY WEALTHY first world nations that do nothing but put more money into the hands of politicians, is a world wide scam.
This is why I disagree with shit like the Paris Accord, GND and a lot of other pollution controls. Us doing it pushes the pollution to China and other countries that dgaf and will even disregard treaties. If we made the same stuff at 4X the polution levels we do now yeah it would be more localized but we'd still be doing it at half the rate of China and probably a lot more efficiently as well since we didn't have to transport stuff cross ocean. It should be taken as a near absolute that China would cook the books on their emissions anyways.

We're easily in the top 10% if not the top 5% so the idea we're not "leading the way" is absolutely insane as well.

Even if there's dire consequences to air pollution pushing that stuff in the US is the wrong choice. We should be pushing others to follow our lead vs pretending like we're the straggler.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:40 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by Ryan02Stang View Post
Wow...talk about BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly, what kind of moron didn't know that for decades!!!
Look at the olympic's fiasco!!!


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Old 05-24-2019, 10:10 AM   #11
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^^Mint', see above information. Proves your argument is like a plane with its tail shot off spinning down to the ocean. With AC/DC playing.

Splash.
you didn't answer any of my questions. presumably because they'd contain a lot of nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
So because I'm curious of the mint/Flyn love affair going on, I started looking up some hard numbers on overall air pollution.

Everyone loves numbers, right?

Pure particulate matter as a whole. Why China is hazey. The actual matter that affects humans and causes issues, a report from 2017:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/...lectricity-use



Going based solely off of the numbers I see above, the US is a nation of some of the LOWEST air pollution at 8 μg/cm of PM2.5

Here's a report from this year indicating China's level has risen to 61 μg/cm of PM2.5.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...vel-rises-52pc



Based on the picture above, China at 61 μg/cm would put them at equal to Libya at the 10 spot.

Let's say, mint and Flyn kissed and made up and figured out a way tomorrow to slash 10% of emissions IMMEDIATELY from every country on Earth.

Would the US at 8 μg/cm and dropping .8 μg/cm make a larger dent? Or would China at 61 μg/cm with a reduction of 6.1 μg/cm (almost the ENTIRETY OF THE US AIR POLLUTION) make a larger difference world wide?

This is why the GND, Paris accord, "carbon credits" that disproportionately affect ONLY WEALTHY first world nations that do nothing but put more money into the hands of politicians, is a world wide scam.
you are mixing numbers here though. ie. your closing paragraph is on carbon credits - so those are for 1 ton of carbon dioxide. but it doesn't have anything to do with particulate matter, which is what the rest of your post is about.

n20gt already posted a chart showing emissions by country and per capita and that is where stuff like AOCs thing is focused anyway. so you are kind of saying "who cares about how much co2 we emit? indonesians throw trash directly into the ocean!" - and the latter is true and bad, but they are separate problems.

i don't get all excited about controlling carbon emissions myself, which is why you never see me making any big pleas for it, although i'm sure there are modest improvements we can make here without causing problematic disruptions. ie. how much we may effect warming trends or not, it's not a bad thing if we are able to reduce our footprint, which probably has a significant amount of waste and inefficiency in it.
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