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Old 04-17-2019, 03:50 PM   #1
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Default German scientists confirm: Electric vehicles are more pollutant than diesel

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The Brussels Times - Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows

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When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which charcoal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich.

Mining and processing the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for batteries consumes up a great deal of energy. A Tesla Model 3 battery, for example, represents between 11 and 15 tonnes of CO2. Given a lifetime of 10 years and an annual travel distance of 15,000 kilometres, this translates into 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, scientists Christoph Buchal, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn note in their study.

The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say.

When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example.

The German researchers therefore take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones. They note further that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per km by 2030 corresponds to a “technically unrealistic” consumption of 2.2 litres of diesel or 2.6 litres of gas per 100 kms.

These new limits pressure German and other European car manufacturers into switching massively to electric vehicles whereas, the researchers feel, it would have been preferable to opt for methane engines, “whose emissions are one-third less than those of diesel motors.”
German study questions eco-friendliness of electric cars | dpa International

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Munich (dpa) - A German study has called into question the eco-friendliness of electric cars, saying they only help the climate on paper and are actually worse for the environment than diesel vehicles.

Christoph Buchal, a Cologne physics professor, compiled the report with colleagues Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn for the Ifo Institute for Economic Research. It was published on Wednesday.

As soon as CO2 emissions from the production of batteries and the non-renewable methods used to create German electricity are taken into account, an electric car burdens the climate 11 to 28 per cent more than a diesel car, the study found.

A lot of energy is used in the recovery and processing of the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for the cars' batteries.

A battery for a Tesla Model 3 produces 11 to 15 tons of CO2, the study said. With a battery life of 10 years and capacity to travel 15,000 kilometres per year, that alone would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, according to the authors.

When the CO2 emissions resulting from grid electricity are also taken into account, in reality, the Tesla emits between 156 and 181 grams of CO2 per kilometre, and thus significantly more than a comparable diesel Mercedes, according to the study.

Carmakers plan to switch the vast majority of their offering to electric cars, but the study's authors say that for the climate, methane-powered engines would be better as their CO2 emissions are one third lower than those of a diesel.
And the source:

CESifo Group Munich - ifo Schnelldienst: Electric Vehicles are not a Panacea for Climate Change

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Apr 17, 2019

Electric vehicles will barely help cut CO2 emissions in Germany over the coming years, as the introduction of electric vehicles does not necessarily lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions from road traffic. Natural gas combustion engines are the ideal technology for transitioning to vehicles powered by hydrogen or “green” methane in the long term.

Considering Germany’s current energy mix and the amount of energy used in battery production, the CO2 emissions of battery-electric vehicles are, in the best case, slightly higher than those of a diesel engine, and are otherwise much higher. This has been confirmed by a new study by Christoph Buchal, professor of physics at the University of Cologne; Hans-Dieter Karl, long-standing ifo energy expert; and Hans-Werner Sinn, former ifo president and professor emeritus at Ludwig-Maximilians-Universitšt MŁnchen. The researchers carried out their detailed calculations using the concrete examples of a modern electric car and a modern diesel vehicle. In addition to CO2 emissions from battery production, they looked at alternative energy sources for electricity in order to calculate the impact electric vehicles have on CO2 emissions. They show that even with today’s technology, total emissions from a combustion engine powered by natural gas are already almost one-third lower than those of a diesel engine. “Over the long term, hydrogen-methane technology offers a further advantage: it allows surplus wind and solar power generated during peaks to be stored, and these surpluses will see a sharp increase as the share of this renewable energy grows,” Professor Buchal explains.

In their study, the authors criticize the fact that EU legislation allows electric vehicles to be included in calculations for fleet emissions with a value of “zero” CO2 emissions, as this suggests that electric vehicles do not generate any such emissions. The reality is that, in addition to the CO2 emissions generated in the production of electric vehicles, almost all EU countries generate significant CO2 emissions from charging the vehicles’ batteries using their national energy production mixes. The authors also take a critical view of the discussion about electric cars in Germany, which centers around battery-operated vehicles when other technologies also offer great potential: hydrogen-powered electric vehicles or vehicles with combustion engines powered by green methane, for instance. “Methane technology is ideal for the transition from natural gas vehicles with conventional engines to engines that will one day run on methane from CO2-free energy sources. This being the case, the German federal government should treat all technologies equally and promote hydrogen and methane solutions as well,” emphasizes Professor Sinn.
And the publication: http://www.cesifo-group.de/DocDL/sd-...2019-04-25.pdf
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:53 PM   #2
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:54 PM   #3
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:54 PM   #4
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FU, I'm saving the planet.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:58 PM   #5
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Amused and oddly not too surprised. My question is are these numbers before or after VW cooks the emissions?
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:06 PM   #6
 
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I thought this was fairly widely known

If you just want to look at efficiency, yeah I'm sure that electric cars will win every time. But lifecycle CO2 emission's? No way. Especially in countries/areas that still rely heavily on coal, natural gas, oil for power infrastructure.

My opinion has always been, if you're in the US, and you want to be "green" you are better off buying a regular ICE car, that was made in the US/NA, that has passed its expected life, and that gets decent gas mileage (an old Geo, Escort, K-car, etc.) Yeah it pollutes slightly more, but it'll cost the environment less than the manufacture of a new car.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:09 PM   #7
 
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If you are importing cars, you can also look at the boats the cars come over on...which are some of the biggest producers of pollution on the planet. They are burning the dirtiest fuel and have zero emission control, which adds significantly to a car's lifecycle CO2.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:16 PM   #8
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No no no, that's too In depth of thought for your average leaf eating tree hugging prius owner.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:19 PM   #9
 
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I make sure to "inform" hybrid owners of these facts, when they get all pious about their "green car"
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensington View Post
I thought this was fairly widely known

If you just want to look at efficiency, yeah I'm sure that electric cars will win every time. But lifecycle CO2 emission's? No way. Especially in countries/areas that still rely heavily on coal, natural gas, oil for power infrastructure.

My opinion has always been, if you're in the US, and you want to be "green" you are better off buying a regular ICE car, that was made in the US/NA, that has passed its expected life, and that gets decent gas mileage (an old Geo, Escort, K-car, etc.) Yeah it pollutes slightly more, but it'll cost the environment less than the manufacture of a new car.
The idea that people need a new car every few years is probably a huge driver of pollution in its own right. I mean it's good that cars tend to go through a cycle that encourages their resale but it's probably still wasteful to build a new car when yours just needs a transmission.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:35 PM   #11
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Dramatization of the left hearing this news.

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Old 04-17-2019, 04:36 PM   #12
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Bwhahahahahah
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:45 PM   #13
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:51 PM   #14
 
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Me right now!

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Old 04-17-2019, 06:43 PM   #15
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Where are all the "Force Electric Cars down everyone's' throats crowd"?

The term I heard 20 years ago was 'Heat to street' and the numbers were overwhelming back then. Apparently, not much has changed.

If you WANT to follow AOC and the Green Bullshit, please, by all means go ahead. When you dip into my pocketbook for your fantasy bullshit, now we have a problem.

Blow YOUR money anyway you want and let me do the same without your Green New Deal self righteous interference.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:43 PM   #16
 
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I'm more interested in hearing from the "you're just too dumb and pleb to understand it" crowd.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:53 PM   #17
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I own a VW Hybrid. I didnít buy it to save the earth. I bought it because it gets 45 mpg. I would buy a Tesla so that i didnít have to buy anymore gas, not to save the earth. Earth is already fucked no matter what I do.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GLADIATOR View Post
I own a VW Hybrid. I didnít buy it to save the earth. I bought it because it gets 45 mpg. I would buy a Tesla so that i didnít have to buy anymore gas, not to save the earth. Earth is already fucked no matter what I do.
Earth knows more than you do...

That said, excellent choices for excellent reasons! Do whatever the fuck you want. Just don't impose anything on me and we will play well together.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:06 PM   #19
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Imagine that..

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Old 04-18-2019, 06:31 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensington View Post
I thought this was fairly widely known

If you just want to look at efficiency, yeah I'm sure that electric cars will win every time. But lifecycle CO2 emission's? No way. Especially in countries/areas that still rely heavily on coal, natural gas, oil for power infrastructure.

My opinion has always been, if you're in the US, and you want to be "green" you are better off buying a regular ICE car, that was made in the US/NA, that has passed its expected life, and that gets decent gas mileage (an old Geo, Escort, K-car, etc.) Yeah it pollutes slightly more, but it'll cost the environment less than the manufacture of a new car.
yeah someone on here laughed at this thought when it was brought up... and i was like
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:38 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensington View Post
I thought this was fairly widely known

If you just want to look at efficiency, yeah I'm sure that electric cars will win every time. But lifecycle CO2 emission's? No way. Especially in countries/areas that still rely heavily on coal, natural gas, oil for power infrastructure.

My opinion has always been, if you're in the US, and you want to be "green" you are better off buying a regular ICE car, that was made in the US/NA, that has passed its expected life, and that gets decent gas mileage (an old Geo, Escort, K-car, etc.) Yeah it pollutes slightly more, but it'll cost the environment less than the manufacture of a new car.
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yeah someone on here laughed at this thought when it was brought up... and i was like
found it. it was @sickmint79

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fyi if someone is truly interested in being green - simply driving an older car, maintaining it, and driving it into the ground is one of the greenest options available.
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OMG, I had to read this twice because I couldn't believe it the first time.
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wait wwhy?
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Old 04-18-2019, 07:01 AM   #22
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LOL, I cant wait to see what this group is going to do in 10, 15, 20 years.

Keep holding on to your dreams.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19...missions-myth

and

https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...udy-fake-news
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:06 AM   #23
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So since my car is both gas and electric am I polluting twice as much?
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:07 AM   #24
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Yes
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:08 AM   #25
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenriddles View Post
Where are all the "Force Electric Cars down everyone's' throats crowd"?
I'd like to second that comment. Too many threads here get sidetracked by "Tesla this, Tesla that". Where are the TCG Tesla nut-swingers now?
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