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Old 09-16-2018, 04:25 PM   #1
 
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Cool Interesting debate between liberals & never Trumpers

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Who do you blame for PRESIDENT Trump winning???
obama for being a clueless fool & coward, that set back race & class relations at least 50 years,
or "never POS crooked hillary" for being "THE" most corrupt criminal in American Presidential history & a despicable excuse of a human being???

Do you blame something or someone else???
I only see them blaming one of those 2??
They never say it's because PRESIDENT Trump did better, had better plans, hoping he brings his success' to Wash DC etc etc, it's always blame blame blame??


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Old 09-16-2018, 04:32 PM   #2
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Actually, I'm not a liberal and I'd say that Hillary got him into office and Obama helped truthfully. If they would have ran even a mediocre candidate like Al Gore or Kerry they'd have probably fared a decent bit better than they did against Trump. The truth is that Hillary was a super shitty candidate that got the nomination due to what amounted to corruption in the DNC. I have no doubts if she didn't run someone less corrupt, more qualified and willing to reach out to more voters would have at least surfaced in the primaries if not been the actual runner.

That said Trump did choose the right time to strike which was when he knew he'd be running against that bad of a candidate. It's also true a great deal of his rhetoric does not translate into what policy he is executing which while very conservative is far less reactionary than the stuff Trump does.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:44 PM   #3
 
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Thanks, that is a well thought out opinion.


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Old 09-16-2018, 10:16 PM   #4
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i thought this was going to be a video or something, but it's like old rants between periods

not sure exactly what makes obama a "clueless fool & coward" or someone that 'has set back race and class relations' supposedly 50 years. if anything white segregationalists appear up since trump and it may be the case with hate crimes as well. nonetheless, obama wasn't running and i don't think he harmed hillary.

i don't think trump won because people voted for him, but because more people voted against hillary than voted against trump. these were some of, if not the, least liked pair of people to have ever run for office, at least in recent history.

it's a smidge of people who even know any candidate's plans, and trumps are whatever bullshit he wants you to hear, which half the time isn't even republican/conservative, and is just his rambling off the cuff. even when a candidate has solid plans and views though, barely anyone is really paying attention to them past the sound bite level. unless something happens, if the economy continues to work along, trump will probably win as well, i would speculate. i'm not sure which democrat would be put up against him but there's the devil you know vs. devil you don't advantage incumbents always have as well.

i don't believe trump would have won if biden had run and secured the nomination. i'm not sure if he would have secured it though, since plenty of democrats were also thinking "it's her time" for hillary.
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:11 PM   #5
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not sure exactly what makes obama a "clueless fool & coward" or someone that 'has set back race and class relations' supposedly 50 years. if anything white segregationalists appear up since trump and it may be the case with hate crimes as well. nonetheless, obama wasn't running and i don't think he harmed hillary.

i don't think trump won because people voted for him, but because more people voted against hillary than voted against trump. these were some of, if not the, least liked pair of people to have ever run for office, at least in recent history.

it's a smidge of people who even know any candidate's plans, and trumps are whatever bullshit he wants you to hear, which half the time isn't even republican/conservative, and is just his rambling off the cuff. even when a candidate has solid plans and views though, barely anyone is really paying attention to them past the sound bite level. unless something happens, if the economy continues to work along, trump will probably win as well, i would speculate. i'm not sure which democrat would be put up against him but there's the devil you know vs. devil you don't advantage incumbents always have as well.

i don't believe trump would have won if biden had run and secured the nomination. i'm not sure if he would have secured it though, since plenty of democrats were also thinking "it's her time" for hillary.
Personally I think of Obama more like a corrupt Chicago Politician which I think is a lot closer. Even GWB's "stupidity" was somewhat of a persona IMO, or at the least poor communication skills at times.

In terms of race relations, he did say some stupid shit. Not to downplay Trump saying some stupid shit too (Charlottesville comes to mind, he would have been better off to say there were a lot of terrible people on both sides than good people on both sides.) Trayvon Martin "could have been his son" comes to mind. I mean, shit lets not let the facts get in the way of a good narrative here.

I will agree a lot of people voted against Hillary. I certainly did. She was exemplary of a corrupt, statist pol to me. If her past was any indication (shit how she got the nomination even) I figured taking my chances with Trump was a better bet. That said, it's very hard to deny that Trump has a cult of personality about him. Look at his rallys. Actually it reminds me of Obama in some eerie ways. I really don't like that personally, I think a person should be rated on policy accomplishments tbh.

Trump does speak and ramble off the cuff, but I'm certainly willing to take that as more genuine than Hillary's speeches or anything for that matter even to a fault. Oddly, at some level I think it's a reason why he is believable in not colluding with the Russians; he's too big mouthed to not talk about it on Twitter. I wouldn't think I'd be alone to those points. If you go through Hillary's history, she champions issues after they become politically safe to do such. Look at Hillary from the 00s and Hillary from the 10s. She just swayed with the wind of what's politically expedient. If any thing it possibly cost her the election because the African American vote (2M votes that flat out did not show up based on the NYT data) didn't believe her. I would likely say that's due to her 90s "super predator" comments.

I could see this being very true. "Crazy Joe" may not have been everyone's favorite, but at the same time he would have run a bland, lackluster campaign that would have been safe and stable which people would have jumped on board for.
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:31 PM   #6
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trump definitely has a cult of personality around him, although like obama's did over time, i expect it to wear off into reality. although trump certainly has the benefit of inheriting a growing economy instead of one that just exploded.

it seems all politicians wait until it is safe to bring up things, like supporting gay marriage or legalization of weed or some other positioned they've "evolved" on. it is hard for me to even pinpoint what trump believes on many issues since over the years or even in recent times he seems to change his story based on his audience.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:04 AM   #7
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I think part of it is that people like Hillary make their changes incrementally over period of years so they can say they have "evolved." I would be extremely surprised if Hillary actually changed her mind on much of anything over time in reality.

It's quite different than taking a Democrat from NY and making them president as a Republican. That said, someone I was listening to did make a point that it may have just been Trump adjusting to the business climate, and another point that he thought the Democrats would work with him if he was president and then when they haven't he's gone more conservative in actuality. There's also the idea that his staffers are moderating his policy like the "steady state" article in the NYT.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:23 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by sickmint79 View Post

i don't think trump won because people voted for him, but because more people voted against hillary than voted against trump. these were some of, if not the, least liked pair of people to have ever run for office, at least in recent history.
I think that's a wrap folks...

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Old 09-17-2018, 10:38 AM   #9
 
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I just cant figure out why he types PRESIDENT in all caps.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:52 AM   #10
 
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I like pissing off liberals.
It's just to remind them President obama was horrible & said PRESIDENT Trump would never become President.
Well he did, and the results have been amazing.

PRESIDENT Trump is still a bad person, a liar, a fool & an embarrassment, but he won fair & square,
unlike "never POS crooked hillary" who couldn't even win the nomination honestly!!!!

Of course the fools & morons will come of of the wood work in November and prove why we are closer to collapse then founding,
but at least we will have 4 years of something better before the liberals bribe & brainwash their way back to power


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Old 09-17-2018, 10:55 AM   #11
 
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Again, some were blaming obama, some were blaming POS clinton.
None would admit PRESIDENT Trump was a better choice or blamed anyone else, it was one of the two.


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Old 09-17-2018, 09:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickmint79 View Post
trump definitely has a cult of personality around him, although like obama's did over time, i expect it to wear off into reality. although trump certainly has the benefit of inheriting a growing economy instead of one that just exploded.

it seems all politicians wait until it is safe to bring up things, like supporting gay marriage or legalization of weed or some other positioned they've "evolved" on. it is hard for me to even pinpoint what trump believes on many issues since over the years or even in recent times he seems to change his story based on his audience.
I'll debate this. I think it will depend on the success of the Mueller investigation. If the docs he's releasing are damning then I think his base will dig in even harder because they see the "deep state" as a threat. I see this as him trying to stick a knife through the heart of the investigation. If the investigation produces tangible evidence of cooperation between Trump and Russia, I think he's in a lot of trouble politically even if nothing comes of it legally. For historical precedence I will go with Bill Clinton, although he had the media machine on his side which is a big difference.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:32 PM   #13
 
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AGAIN, even if he did get dirt on "never POS crooked hillary" from some Russian officials,
how is that any different than her hiring all the women to make sexual misconduct claims.
her meetings with people to get dirt on PRESIDENT Trump, her screwing over sanders,
her breaking the law, and the person in charge of prosecuting her meets privately with her husband!!!

Until I see proof that Russia stuffed ballot boxes,
none of this is any different than any other election tricks both sides have done for many many years.


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Old 09-20-2018, 09:15 AM   #14
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It's the Karl Marx playbook that the Democrats always follow.

Karl Marx: “Accuse Your Enemy Of What You Are Doing, As You Are Doing It To Create Confusion”
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:53 AM   #15
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It's the Karl Marx playbook that the Democrats always follow.

Karl Marx: “Accuse Your Enemy Of What You Are Doing, As You Are Doing It To Create Confusion”
sounds more like alinsky or goebbels or machiavelli and probably paraphrased as well. i am 100% sure that quote has nothing to do at all with marx.
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:00 AM   #16
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Saul Alinsky, "Rules for Radicals".
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:10 AM   #17
 
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I think that's a wrap folks...

Why I voted for neither
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