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View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with the message of the manifesto?
No, I do not. 1 11.11%
Yes, I do. 8 88.89%
Unwilling to take a side. 0 0%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-07-2017, 10:13 AM   #26
 
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I would not say there is anything blatantly hostile, but there are a handful of undertones present in the manifesto that could be easily questioned.
And I would welcome questions and discussions since that would be the point is discussing it, I don't think I'd label him hostile though.

Whats the over/under on days till he gets fired?
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Old 08-07-2017, 10:14 AM   #27
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Well, just finished reading that novel and found myself agreeing with a majority of it.....

Then went on to the Response from Danielle who makes it sound like Google disagrees with it, followed by of course the comments making sure to say the person writing it is a sexist racist pig... SMH.

This was one of the biggest points of the manifesto, that we should be tolerant of everyone's thoughts no matter where they're coming from, but of course the person who wrote it was a man, likely a white male, so he's automatically a sexist racist scumbag.

People going straight in that direction just because they don't agree with someone else's viewpoint is going to start backfiring, and I'd say the selection of Donald Trump was the start of it.
I agree that the reply is as interesting if not more so than the actual letter having read both in full now. I didn't get the "sexist racist pig" part out of her statement, however I certainly did get the "you're not towing the line sit down and shut up" part of it. It's a biolerplate statement at best meant to just say something.

"Part of building an open, inclusive environment means fostering a culture in which those with alternative views, including different political views, feel safe sharing their opinions. But that discourse needs to work alongside the principles of equal employment found in our Code of Conduct, policies, and anti-discrimination laws."

This goes back to the high likelihood of their doctrine and PC nature being used as a cudgel against this individual. It is also reflected in their products at some levels, to a point of damaging their reputation. See youtube fuckery thread.

In terms of liberal vs conservative nature of Google, he's very much right. Google still has this idea that they're a start up. They're not. This really shows in piloting of projects on their end (look at every social platform they've made.) They try to treat these projects as startup in nature but at a huge scale and those fuckups cost them both in terms of money and reputation. They are also trying to compete in mature markets vs trying to find an edge which is what startups traditionally do.

This guy was planning to bail, or I hope to god he was. If not, he is now.. There's no way he can't expect some form of retaliation after writing something like that. He's also a gross mismatch to their corporate culture, echo chamber or not. That's the first sign you should move on in virtually any position IMO and one of the most important things about courting a company.
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Old 08-07-2017, 10:15 AM   #28
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That's not entirely true, what's between your legs dictates how much testosterone you have in your system, which usually has a large impact on how your brain works.

Just saying.
In that aspect, of course I'd agree. I was talking more about the examples I gave and diversity in these groups.
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Old 08-07-2017, 10:17 AM   #29
 
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I didn't get the "sexist racist pig" part out of her statement, however I certainly did get the "you're not towing the line sit down and shut up" part of it.
I meant the comments by the people after her response... They're all essentially making him out to be one.

Like the third comment was something like "he's not even trying to hide his racism because he used the word race in his manifesto 8 times!"

So now discussing race makes you racist ?!?!?
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Old 08-07-2017, 10:24 AM   #30
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I meant the comments by the people after her response... They're all essentially making him out to be one.
My bad. I'm picking through a few of them now. My personal favorite of the moment are the people talking IQ being impacted by education which is laughable.

Some of this shit is just misandrist garbage as well.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:16 PM   #31
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Vox Popoli: Attacking dissent at Google

This got posted up somewhere. Not sure on legitimacy of it at all, but very interesting. I'm curious if this is more typical sentiment or just the outliers. I would hope to lean more towards the former than the latter, there are a lot of reactionary people in there.

What amazes me if you read this is people are calling him a racist over the whole document. If you read what he says, I would think he would be fine with going to a "blind" hiring process where things like race or gender weren't actually even known before hiring.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:08 PM   #32
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In terms of H1B really? Here, read this. If you're in the 100K range in the IT industry esp in California area you've got some talents, but by no means are you the next Ritchie. Disney got into the same shit as Edison on this. It's not that there weren't workers there, it's that there weren't workers there who would do it for the price they wanted so they got H1Bs instead. I've seen this in several shops during my time as a CE with EMC. They'd shitcan the whole staff and bring in outsourced people from another country. Tata also got in trouble for keeping bonuses that were meant for employees and lost a law suit over it. Some of them get treated as virtual slaves in the US due to the threat of getting their status pulled. Based on my experiences in the industry, I have little to no doubt that is real.

New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program | Economic Policy Institute
i noted these are the 3rd part ones which are indeed different. ie. instead of cisco->h1b worker it's cisco->consulting agency->h1b

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In terms of Women in tech, you kind of had 2 and 2 in your statement without putting the association together. People like Google and Apple and Microsoft get to present themselves as socially correct while preparing a future work force that they can get to work for less money if the theory of wage gaps are correct.
which it of course isn't, else businesses could/would be supercompetitors by only being full of women. black women at that.

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They also get to increase the number of people in the labor pool which would in turn decrease prices. Why wouldn't they want a larger labor pool to choose from?
but if prices/wages aren't good, they still wouldn't attract people anyway. in some ways we already have a large pool of not that good of people, which is part of the reason argued for h1bs anyway, an existing skills gap. i think things like programs to encourage more women to go into STEM are absolutely genuine 100%.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:12 PM   #33
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That's not entirely true, what's between your legs dictates how much testosterone you have in your system, which usually has a large impact on how your brain works.

Just saying.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:14 PM   #34
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Vox Popoli: Attacking dissent at Google

This got posted up somewhere. Not sure on legitimacy of it at all, but very interesting. I'm curious if this is more typical sentiment or just the outliers. I would hope to lean more towards the former than the latter, there are a lot of reactionary people in there.

What amazes me if you read this is people are calling him a racist over the whole document. If you read what he says, I would think he would be fine with going to a "blind" hiring process where things like race or gender weren't actually even known before hiring.
interesting article indeed
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:25 PM   #35
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I agree that the reply is as interesting if not more so than the actual letter having read both in full now. I didn't get the "sexist racist pig" part out of her statement, however I certainly did get the "you're not towing the line sit down and shut up" part of it. It's a biolerplate statement at best meant to just say something.

"Part of building an open, inclusive environment means fostering a culture in which those with alternative views, including different political views, feel safe sharing their opinions. But that discourse needs to work alongside the principles of equal employment found in our Code of Conduct, policies, and anti-discrimination laws."

This goes back to the high likelihood of their doctrine and PC nature being used as a cudgel against this individual. It is also reflected in their products at some levels, to a point of damaging their reputation. See youtube fuckery thread.

In terms of liberal vs conservative nature of Google, he's very much right. Google still has this idea that they're a start up. They're not. This really shows in piloting of projects on their end (look at every social platform they've made.) They try to treat these projects as startup in nature but at a huge scale and those fuckups cost them both in terms of money and reputation. They are also trying to compete in mature markets vs trying to find an edge which is what startups traditionally do.

This guy was planning to bail, or I hope to god he was. If not, he is now.. There's no way he can't expect some form of retaliation after writing something like that. He's also a gross mismatch to their corporate culture, echo chamber or not. That's the first sign you should move on in virtually any position IMO and one of the most important things about courting a company.

She has been there 2 weeks. Should be observing as compared to reacting as she doesn't have respect / foundation there yet, let alone doesn't understand the culture. As a result, comes across as a new teacher's pet offering to perform after school, oral homework for extra credit.

Per the original author - he wrote his Jerry McQuire memo and now can say Peace Out Bitches!
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:25 PM   #36
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I think I must either not be reading enough, or confused by this manifesto. However, I have a few things to say about diversity.

Does it help? Of course. If you have everyone around you thinking and liking the same things, nothing new will be proposed and you can be doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

HOWEVER, there are exceptions where diversifying might not help you.

Women in tech. Are there any? Of course. But companies trying to set diversification percentages are just stupid. Google is not going to have the same percentages as say.....All State. Two totally different types of companies. Two companies in two totally different fields of business. One cannot have the type of diversity percentage as the other since I do believe that there is a want of being in the tech field.

Example. My daughter is now 11. She starts Jr high next week. There are tons of clubs for her to join. (WTF, where were these cool ass things when I was a kid?) We were looking at them and Ill be honest. I am kinda selfish and try to push her to tech clubs so she might get interested and we can do projects together that I have started to do. Ive been tinkering more with raspberry pis, and I just got my 3D printer which just gives more opportunities for more projects. She wants NONE of it.

And that is ok. I know women dont take to technology as well as men. Ill never say women are inferior. Ive seen/met women that would make me look silly. LOL. Thats like saying there are no women mechanics. There are, just very little.

My field that I work in, physical security, is exactly the same. VERY little women working in the field. How can we diversify our department when there arent many women in the field to begin with? Once again, they arent terrible at it. I feel my best manager was a woman, but she was the exception. Not the norm.

Same thing for Google. You want the very best, but also want to diversify. The best thing you can do is lure these people from competitive companies, or scout them from college. You cant just given a woman a job because you need to make a quota. You might be passing up a once and a life time employee that could change your department/division/company because you were trying to diversify.

TL/DR, diversity is good, but not at the cost of your company. Hire the best, no matter race, gender, creed, so on and so forth.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:58 AM   #37
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She has been there 2 weeks. Should be observing as compared to reacting as she doesn't have respect / foundation there yet, let alone doesn't understand the culture. As a result, comes across as a new teacher's pet offering to perform after school, oral homework for extra credit.
I actually disagree with this sentiment at some level for three reasons. First, she is a high ranking employee, her experience should be high enough she should be able to speak on this. Second, she had experienced people to run this through like PR. Trust me it went through PR, and they may even be the source of some of the boilerplate. Third, it's something where we ultimately find ourselves in a trial by fire fighting a battle on a field not of our choosing.

The last point reminds me of my first day in IT actually. I'm at the datacenter (which happened to be our support center) for all of 15 minutes with the owners of the company there when the network shits the bed. All of a sudden we were getting dozens of calls. I asked the owner what to do, he said pick up the phone and tell them it's being worked on. That's what I ended up doing, and that's what she ended up doing. You can't always be waiting for training or experience at the right time, every so often it comes up and slaps you in the face.

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I think I must either not be reading enough, or confused by this manifesto. However, I have a few things to say about diversity.

Does it help? Of course. If you have everyone around you thinking and liking the same things, nothing new will be proposed and you can be doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

HOWEVER, there are exceptions where diversifying might not help you.

Women in tech. Are there any? Of course. But companies trying to set diversification percentages are just stupid. Google is not going to have the same percentages as say.....All State. Two totally different types of companies. Two companies in two totally different fields of business. One cannot have the type of diversity percentage as the other since I do believe that there is a want of being in the tech field.

Example. My daughter is now 11. She starts Jr high next week. There are tons of clubs for her to join. (WTF, where were these cool ass things when I was a kid?) We were looking at them and Ill be honest. I am kinda selfish and try to push her to tech clubs so she might get interested and we can do projects together that I have started to do. Ive been tinkering more with raspberry pis, and I just got my 3D printer which just gives more opportunities for more projects. She wants NONE of it.

And that is ok. I know women dont take to technology as well as men. Ill never say women are inferior. Ive seen/met women that would make me look silly. LOL. Thats like saying there are no women mechanics. There are, just very little.

My field that I work in, physical security, is exactly the same. VERY little women working in the field. How can we diversify our department when there arent many women in the field to begin with? Once again, they arent terrible at it. I feel my best manager was a woman, but she was the exception. Not the norm.

Same thing for Google. You want the very best, but also want to diversify. The best thing you can do is lure these people from competitive companies, or scout them from college. You cant just given a woman a job because you need to make a quota. You might be passing up a once and a life time employee that could change your department/division/company because you were trying to diversify.

TL/DR, diversity is good, but not at the cost of your company. Hire the best, no matter race, gender, creed, so on and so forth.
Very well stated. Hire without an eye to biases, but always hire the best you can no matter what. Understand the skills those you hire bring to the table, both stuff that's easy to quantify and stuff that's harder to quantify.

That said on your daughter, it's awesome you want to connect with her. Maybe you should broaden your horizons to do so too. That said, some times all we can be in life is cheer leaders for those we care about and ultimately it's their path to walk.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:12 AM   #38
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https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/a...diversity-memo

That was fast, if not ironic.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:54 AM   #39
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That said on your daughter, it's awesome you want to connect with her. Maybe you should broaden your horizons to do so too. That said, some times all we can be in life is cheer leaders for those we care about and ultimately it's their path to walk.
I agree. She can do whatever she wants, career/school path, and Ill be ok with it. I was just using an example of people are different when it comes to interest. She may not be a tech person, even though I am, and that is ok. I show her all the cool shit and what she could do. Just kinda looks at it, says cool, then goes along. Leaving me pondering what am I doing with my life.

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One more spot to hire a woman. Gotta make that quota. BAZING!
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:20 AM   #40
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I agree. She can do whatever she wants, career/school path, and Ill be ok with it. I was just using an example of people are different when it comes to interest. She may not be a tech person, even though I am, and that is ok. I show her all the cool shit and what she could do. Just kinda looks at it, says cool, then goes along. Leaving me pondering what am I doing with my life.
Priority is indeed a matter of perspective. All I really care about my son is that he grows up and finds success in doing something in his life. That's what really matters.

I think everyone should have a level of tech savvy in their lives these days, it's almost impossible to function without it. It doesn't have to be actual programming, but understanding that there are tools there to empower people to create things. I will say that I think some of the "magic" is gone for the new generations. I mean, think about it. We live in an era where the reality was science fiction when we were alive.

On a totally OT note, TCG should have a maker day at some point in their lives. That would be pretty cool.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:46 AM   #41
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Hey, I just wanted to ask a quick rhetorical question and see what the thoughts are on it. Is this memo ideologically divisive enough to trigger a purge or exodus in Alphabet companies? Just wondering what the thoughts are.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:11 PM   #42
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i don't think it will trigger either. considering he got canned and the outrage comments reacting to the letter you could argue people with these views might even be more closed mouth now
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:17 PM   #43
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Hey, I just wanted to ask a quick rhetorical question and see what the thoughts are on it. Is this memo ideologically divisive enough to trigger a purge or exodus in Alphabet companies? Just wondering what the thoughts are.
I don't think it'll trigger anything at a large scale, but it is an interesting thought process that has now been opened and with any luck, will continue to take form and be considered as programs catering to diversity objectives are created in the future.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:25 PM   #44
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I actually disagree with this sentiment at some level for three reasons. First, she is a high ranking employee, her experience should be high enough she should be able to speak on this. Second, she had experienced people to run this through like PR. Trust me it went through PR, and they may even be the source of some of the boilerplate. Third, it's something where we ultimately find ourselves in a trial by fire fighting a battle on a field not of our choosing.
Myself and peers in current / past lives haven't sent out a company-wide response similar in nature when new to the organization. She may have volunteered, don't understand why, or tapped on the shoulder, but IMO too new to do so. Her direct above, Employee Relations or HR could have addressed.

Not convinced PR touched this, but presume she did run it past another set of eyes.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:02 PM   #45
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Myself and peers in current / past lives haven't sent out a company-wide response similar in nature when new to the organization. She may have volunteered, don't understand why, or tapped on the shoulder, but IMO too new to do so. Her direct above, Employee Relations or HR could have addressed.

Not convinced PR touched this, but presume she did run it past another set of eyes.
Are you an HR or a comms guy? If you are I'd be interested in sitting down and doing a beer or something. Would be a very interesting conversation.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:20 PM   #46
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I read the entire Google memo and I think it is 100 percent factually correct. I also find it very ironic that a guy writes a memo saying people at Google are afraid to speak up against the left leaning practices in the company if they slightly hold any right leaning beliefs because they are afraid Google will fire them. In response, Google fires him. The Vice President of Google say Google is "unequivocal in our belief that diversity and inclusion are critical to our success" and yet they fire someone for posting a scientifically and empirically sound memo on diversity.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:20 PM   #47
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Are you an HR or a comms guy? If you are I'd be interested in sitting down and doing a beer or something. Would be a very interesting conversation.

I am not responsible for the HR or Communications related areas.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:35 PM   #48
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I am not responsible for the HR or Communications related areas.
Pardon, you came off like it. As part of what I do and my growth areas I'm always interested in conversation with upper level management and similar as a method of education. I think it would be interesting regardless.

https://archive.is/z6xxP#selection-1367.226-1389.3

Interesting read from psychologists about what he said. 3/4 of them agree with him, and 1 largely agrees with him. Not the shut down that Google was really looking for I suspect.

Wikileaks offered him a job too. Man, talk about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:35 PM   #49
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Just a couple of the "inclusive" workers of Google. They say a picture is worth a thousand words.

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Old 08-08-2017, 02:46 PM   #50
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Pardon, you came off like it. As part of what I do and my growth areas I'm always interested in conversation with upper level management and similar as a method of education. I think it would be interesting regardless.

https://archive.is/z6xxP#selection-1367.226-1389.3

Interesting read from psychologists about what he said. 3/4 of them agree with him, and 1 largely agrees with him. Not the shut down that Google was really looking for I suspect.

Wikileaks offered him a job too. Man, talk about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.

Was in the Communications arena years back and have continued to keep a pulse in that area.
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