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Old 06-13-2016, 10:31 AM   #126
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I'd just be curious as to how a CCW class compares to police firearm or military firearm training. I know that my dad had extensive weapons training in the military, but that was in 1970.
well and police firearm training isn't anything to write home about either though... shouldn't even be in the same sentence as military firearm training.

i mean think about how often you hear some cops unloaded 173 rounds at some dude, and hit him 3 times.

cops who have extensive firearm training, typically do because of their own accord, and their own training outside of their work, not because something gov't mandated.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:32 AM   #127
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Its nothing to do with common sense. The guy is babbling. Like I said, the last two paragraphs are on point. The rest is all non sense anti-gun BS that literally doesn't apply to this issue.
If you take what he is saying as anti-gun BS you are off your rocker.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:33 AM   #128
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Would the NRA go for stricter punishments for gun crimes? Serious question...
The NRA is all for strict punishment of gun crimes... but sadly, the statistics on that prove that existing laws are not fully leveraged in almost ALL cases - leaving criminals back on the streets in a very short time.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:33 AM   #129
 
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Not quite sure how it's anti gun with statements like:

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I don't want to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. I don't want to take guns out of the hands of sportsmen and women. I want to keep guns out of the hands of bad people. I want there to be realistic training that goes behind holding that weapon in your hand. We will never be perfect in that endeavor, but we are certainly failing right now. Surely, level heads can come together and find some sort of solution. Surely, some progress can be made. Surely?

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Old 06-13-2016, 10:36 AM   #130
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The NRA is all for strict punishment of gun crimes... but sadly, the statistics on that prove that existing laws are not fully leveraged in almost ALL cases - leaving criminals back on the streets in a very short time.
For anyone who thinks the NRA is a horrible monster, WATCH THIS.

https://www.nranews.com/series/wayne...kground-checks
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:38 AM   #131
 
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The NRA is all for strict punishment of gun crimes... but sadly, the statistics on that prove that existing laws are not fully leveraged in almost ALL cases - leaving criminals back on the streets in a very short time.
Thanks
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:40 AM   #132
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If I've learned one thing, from dating an attorney, is that judges rarely know the actual law, and are rarely fair or impartial.

Like I said though, I would hope that the NRA would back a bill/bills that would make minimum sentences longer and illegal gun possession a felony across the board (which would theoretically preclude anyone convicted from ever owning a gun in the future.)
The NRA supports prosecution of criminals, end of story!
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:42 AM   #133
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Not quite sure how it's anti gun with statements like:

You sure about that? Read it carefully. It says it isn't... but it really is.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:48 AM   #134
 
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You sure about that? Read it carefully. It says it isn't... but it really is.
I have read it, carefully, multiple times, did so before I reposted it, as most of what he's saying, I believe in. After reading it, again, I don't see how it is full blow anti-gun bs. Maybe because he's saying that there needs to be more checks and balances with getting guns, sure.

I do feel like getting a gun or CCL is a joke in this country, but it's a hard thing to regulate and fix without infringing on the right of the 2a, which I also believe should not be infringed upon. It's such a gray area, which causes everyone, including this forum, always prefaces these statements with "I don't know what needs to be done, but something does," myself included.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:53 AM   #135
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Would the NRA go for stricter punishments for gun crimes? Serious question...
The big push with the NRA has been better enforcement of gun laws that exist. I'm inclined to agree, don't forget that merely possessing a gun as a convicted felon is 5 years if it's prosecuted. Lying on a 4473 (at a licensed gun dealer) is 5 years federal time.

There are ~75k rejections a year of NICS background checks but only about 50 prosecutions. Even though a huge amount of those rejections are false positives if you believe 1% of the people applying are lying on the forms and are invalid purchasers that should be quite a few more prosecutions.

You have shit like this:

Federal Judge Sentences Straw Purchaser Who Bought Gun Used By Omaha Cop Killer To Probation

End easy bail and kid gloves for straw purchasers of guns | GJSentinel.com


Judge repeats gun rights slogan during sentencing for illegal buys
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:57 AM   #136
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Senator David Knezek
16 hrs ∑
I want to preface this post with the fact that I carried a weapon for our country for many years, I support the 2nd Amendment, I am an unapologetic ally of the LGBT community, and I am an unapologetic ally of the Muslim community in my district and around the world, 99.9% of whom are kind and peace-loving people.

What happened in Orlando has shaken me. The single largest mass shooting in the history of the United States. Politicians - people like me - will do one of two things now: offer up prayers and do absolutely nothing in response, or, renew their attacks on the entire Muslim community for the actions of a few. Both are irresponsible and dangerous paths to continue down.

I don't know what the answer is to gun violence in our country. I carried a gun for years in the military. I had extensive training on how and when to use it. I knew at all times that simply introducing a gun to a situation immediately heightens the emotions of it. I believe that I am a responsible gun user because the Marine Corps properly trained me to be one. It took years. Years. People in Michigan today can take an 8 hour class, fire 90, .22 caliber rounds, and they have the same access to a weapon as me. Some, and I know this happens, pay the right person off and they get the certification without ever having attended the course. Do they have the training, the knowledge, the combat mindset to know what holding a weapon in your hands really means? No. But they can get one, so easily, and they can inflict violence on people, mercilessly, like what was done this morning. Of course, this is where people will argue that someone can just illegally obtain a gun and commit these acts of violence anyway. A red herring in my belief. Anything and everything can be done illegally but we still have laws governing almost all of it. Too many of us live in a zero-sum world where it's all or nothing: if we can't stop EVERY gun death, we shouldn't enact laws that might stop SOME gun deaths. What a tragic mindset.
Babble. Touting his own training. Then talking down on the training that does exist for people to own a gun as being insufficient. Who is he to judge that? Then, blatantly suggesting those "easy to pass (or bypass)" classes result in people going out and inflicting violence??? Give me a break.


Quote:
This morning's shooter obtained his gun legally, despite being the subject of two FBI investigations. Think about that for a moment. Why, after such convincing evidence to the contrary, would we ever allow someone like that to obtain a gun legally?
Babble. WHY? Because they didn't find anything on him. NOTHING. That's on the FBI.

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The gunman would have had a more difficult time getting a mortgage for a new house or buying a car. Could he have obtained a gun illegally? Maybe. But he didn't have to. Our system just put it in his hands. That is a broken system.
babble. Mortgage or car loan? WTF? The system didn't find any guilt, so he was a free man like the rest of us.

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I don't want to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. I don't want to take guns out of the hands of sportsmen and women. I want to keep guns out of the hands of bad people. I want there to be realistic training that goes behind holding that weapon in your hand. We will never be perfect in that endeavor, but we are certainly failing right now. Surely, level heads can come together and find some sort of solution. Surely, some progress can be made. Surely?
BABBLE... SURELY! Training is all that is needed to keep bad people from "inflicting violence."

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I don't know what the answer is to gun violence in our country but I do know that we are the only civilized country in the world where this happens. That should be our starting point - asking "Why?" Perhaps we can find answers. We aren't finding anything today. We aren't solving anything today. We aren't saving lives.
BABBLE! The only civilized country? I think France and Great Britain take offense. They too, despite tougher laws, have been targets of such attacks. But not to this guy. He obviously thinks we're the only people in the WORLD that have been targeted.

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To have this attack occur against members of the LGBT community hurts my heart in such a deep way. After the victories that have been had over the past few years, to now have the community associated with such an unspeakable act again should embolden us all to reaffirm our support and love for our LGBT brothers and sisters. Let us not speak the killer's name as much as we speak the names of the dead, that their memories and their spirit might live on in our words and our actions moving forward.

Soon we will hear the rally cry against Muslims in our country and around the world. I ask my fellow citizens to not fall victim to the mindless and ignorant ramblings of those who seek to discriminate and hate others based upon their religion, the color of their skin, their culture and their nationality. To commit such an atrocity during the Holy Month of Ramadan affirms that this man was no true Muslim. The twisted ideology of ISIS, the bastardization of Islam in the name of world domination is a belief system ascribed to by only a small few in this world. Fight ISIS? Yes. Kill ISIS? Yes. But condemn over a billion people for the actions of one or a few? No. Let us be better Americans than that.
Here were the two paragraphs that actually made sense. ^^^

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These kind of attacks will continue to be a problem in our country as long as Americans allow politicians to manipulate them into thinking that the most pressing issues of the day are who urinates in what bathroom. Jobs. Public Safety. Criminal Justice Reform. Education. Rising Healthcare Costs. A Diminishing Middle Class. Veterans. Gun Violence. These are the issues that should beat in the hearts of Americans. Stay focused.
Bold text FTW.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:58 AM   #137
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If you take what he is saying as anti-gun BS you are off your rocker.
Am I? Because that's the agenda his statements are feeding... My $.02.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:02 AM   #138
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"Luring in American Patriots to his side" - couldn't agree more. Carefully worded to do exactly that.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:06 AM   #139
 
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Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
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I don't know what the answer is to gun violence in our country but I do know that we are the only civilized country in the world where this happens. That should be our starting point - asking "Why?" Perhaps we can find answers. We aren't finding anything today. We aren't solving anything today. We aren't saving lives.
BABBLE! The only civilized country? I think France and Great Britain take offense. They too, despite tougher laws, have been targets of such attacks. But not to this guy. He obviously thinks we're the only people in the WORLD that have been targeted.

Quote:
To have this attack occur against members of the LGBT community hurts my heart in such a deep way. After the victories that have been had over the past few years, to now have the community associated with such an unspeakable act again should embolden us all to reaffirm our support and love for our LGBT brothers and sisters. Let us not speak the killer's name as much as we speak the names of the dead, that their memories and their spirit might live on in our words and our actions moving forward.

Soon we will hear the rally cry against Muslims in our country and around the world. I ask my fellow citizens to not fall victim to the mindless and ignorant ramblings of those who seek to discriminate and hate others based upon their religion, the color of their skin, their culture and their nationality. To commit such an atrocity during the Holy Month of Ramadan affirms that this man was no true Muslim. The twisted ideology of ISIS, the bastardization of Islam in the name of world domination is a belief system ascribed to by only a small few in this world. Fight ISIS? Yes. Kill ISIS? Yes. But condemn over a billion people for the actions of one or a few? No. Let us be better Americans than that.
Here were the two paragraphs that actually made sense. ^^^

Quote:
These kind of attacks will continue to be a problem in our country as long as Americans allow politicians to manipulate them into thinking that the most pressing issues of the day are who urinates in what bathroom. Jobs. Public Safety. Criminal Justice Reform. Education. Rising Healthcare Costs. A Diminishing Middle Class. Veterans. Gun Violence. These are the issues that should beat in the hearts of Americans. Stay focused.
Bold text FTW.
While I don't see the rest of your post, the same way you do, I can say that I do agree with you on these points.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:06 AM   #140
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I really do wish more people would engage and contemplate this issue. Seems like a few are willing to jump in, but most lurk and steer clear.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:06 AM   #141
 
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The big push with the NRA has been better enforcement of gun laws that exist. I'm inclined to agree, don't forget that merely possessing a gun as a convicted felon is 5 years if it's prosecuted. Lying on a 4473 (at a licensed gun dealer) is 5 years federal time.

There are ~75k rejections a year of NICS background checks but only about 50 prosecutions. Even though a huge amount of those rejections are false positives if you believe 1% of the people applying are lying on the forms and are invalid purchasers that should be quite a few more prosecutions.

You have shit like this:

Federal Judge Sentences Straw Purchaser Who Bought Gun Used By Omaha Cop Killer To Probation

End easy bail and kid gloves for straw purchasers of guns | GJSentinel.com


Judge repeats gun rights slogan during sentencing for illegal buys
My only question is, where and why are those laws not being enforced or prosecuted?
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:07 AM   #142
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While I don't see the rest of your post, the same way you do, I can say that I do agree with you on these points.
Fair enough. We're all entitled to our opinions! Hopefully you too haven't tossed me into the bat shit crazy group.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:09 AM   #143
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:14 AM   #144
 
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Fair enough. We're all entitled to our opinions! Hopefully you too haven't tossed me into the bat shit crazy group.
I think Dan drills it into our heads pretty good if you take his classes. It's no secret that there are A LOT of gun owners out there that do A LOT of things wrong, I was one of them.

I take owning a gun very seriously, even so much as to say that anyone living in my house will know how to use it and will know the safety around it. As I said above, I do believe that it's a very gray area when it comes to how we should be handling the 2a in this country as I'm for both sides of the argument. I don't want people to have to go through hoops and BS to own a firearm that it's their right to own, but I also want to keep guns out of the hands of bad people.

I believe that if we get the mindset right, and stop the media from spewing bullshit, things could actually get done. However, what happens from any of these events is all the same shit. Mass media spewing bullshit about it was the gun that did it, ignoring the underlying issue of the fucking psycho that used the gun, knife, bomb, beer bottle, fists, feet, etc. @SMKE EM has a good point, as I believe I've said before, as well as others on this forum have, society is the issue, and that's a hard one to fix.

You're far from batshit crazy in my book, you're just voiced about your opinions, which is good. I tend to not voice mine so much in text because I find myself babbling and not making too much sense.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:17 AM   #145
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I think Dan drills it into our heads pretty good if you take his classes. It's no secret that there are A LOT of gun owners out there that do A LOT of things wrong, I was one of them.

I take owning a gun very seriously, even so much as to say that anyone living in my house will know how to use it and will know the safety around it. As I said above, I do believe that it's a very gray area when it comes to how we should be handling the 2a in this country as I'm for both sides of the argument. I don't want people to have to go through hoops and BS to own a firearm that it's their right to own, but I also want to keep guns out of the hands of bad people.

I believe that if we get the mindset right, and stop the media from spewing bullshit, things could actually get done. However, what happens from any of these events is all the same shit. Mass media spewing bullshit about it was the gun that did it, ignoring the underlying issue of the fucking psycho that used the gun, knife, bomb, beer bottle, fists, feet, etc. @SMKE EM has a good point, as I believe I've said before, as well as others on this forum have, society is the issue, and that's a hard one to fix.

You're far from batshit crazy in my book, you're just voiced about your opinions, which is good. I tend to not voice mine so much in text because I find myself babbling and not making too much sense.
Well, I for one think you're on a good track to make useful contributions to the conversation! Don't disregard the "conversation" and education aspects of being pro-gun. It's a very important part of the responsibility.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:22 AM   #146
 
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Well, I for one think you're on a good track to make useful contributions to the conversation! Don't disregard the "conversation" and education aspects of being pro-gun. It's a very important part of the responsibility.
I can't remember how many people I've had to explain that the AR is simply a semi-auto rifle to simply because the media and people with zero clue get on their soapboxes and spew that we need to ban these automatic weapons immediately after any instance like this.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:24 AM   #147
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I can't remember how many people I've had to explain that the AR is simply a semi-auto rifle to simply because the media and people with zero clue get on their soapboxes and spew that we need to ban these automatic weapons immediately after any instance like this.
Hard for them not to misunderstand the AR when its not part of their lives and everyone, including the POTUS, spews misinformation about the platform, its background, uses, capabilities, terminology, etc.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:25 AM   #148
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I'm right there with you, it's a slippery slope...on one hand, I have no desire to deny 2nd amendment rights to law abiding citizens (or any other right for that matter), but on the other hand, we have to be able to control "bad guys" from walking into a store/show and buying guns. I know it's easy enough to get them illegally, but that is a whole other discussion on how to fix that (of which I have no idea where we'd start)
I will troll/play the devil's advocate here. Since the Muslim faith seems to be a hot bed for these sort of things, how about we just outlaw the faith entirely? Also, any person who is a former Muslim since it's now illegal is prevented from accessing the Internet. They could be recruiting after all. We went after the confederate flag as a symbol of hate when Dylan Roof went and shot up a church, why can't we do the same thing? Shit this guy killed 4X as many people. And since obviously they will protest and/or try to get their day in court, lets prevent them from doing that too.

It's really simple actually. It's because the constitution doesn't have carve outs for X, Y or Z faiths. It doesn't have carve outs that state you don't get free speech protection for things that have come along since it was ratified. Would you accept ANY of the above? Why is it that the second amendment is a second class citizen when it comes to protection?

Also, do you know the last time a gun show gun was used in a mass murder like this? It was actually Columbine, and it was a legal party that made the purchases because they were too young. The other parties that provided weapons to them were given under 4 years each. Reality is criminals get their guns at gun shows less than 1% of the time. You have to vest a purchaser via Illinois background check system (even for private sales/gun show/whatever buzz word) sales and we still have violence problems in Chicago.

Do you know why many gun owners are opposed to background checks for firearm purchases being mandatory? It's because of places like California. Right now they are trying to pass laws that would ban rifles and make the mere possession of them illegal. Your choices would be to move them out of state, sell them out of state or to an FFL, or to turn them into the police to destroy them. The idea of depriving someone of their property by writ of law sounds a great deal like confiscation to me. Forces like Hillary and Obama would have you believe that no one is trying to take a person's guns, but it's happening right now.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:25 AM   #149
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So I feel like this has moved away from what this talk should be about. What are people's suggestion to prevent situations like this. Does it start at foreign policy? Does it start at the laws preventing people that are terrorist org sympathizers?
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:28 AM   #150
 
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Originally Posted by SMKE EM View Post

Britain is so strict with their gun laws, their knife violence stats are ALMOST ON PAR with our gun violence stats.

UK - "26,370 offences in 2014/15"
U.K. Criminalizes Knife Possession; Result? Knife Violence Increases

"33,169 deaths related to firearms in 2013"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vi..._United_States
This is why you have to challenge data on the internet. That's not a fair comparison. The UK figure is crime stats vs. deaths.

Here's more data:

The underlying theme of the figures – that England and Wales continues to become a safer country – is underlined by the homicide rate. The police recorded 534 murders in the 12 months to March – only one more than in the previous year – and close to the lowest level since 1978 when 532 people were murdered.
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