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Old 01-16-2018, 08:00 AM   #101
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Those two are not mutually exclusive, not sure how you come up with that logic.

Doing something illegal is a choice, a choice these kids were not able to make, not only that but we would be doing the economy more harm than good by removing working productive members of society and deporting them.
That's not entirely true. There's a portion of these "kids" who came alone as well once Obama started the Dreamers program.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:28 AM   #102
 
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You didnít BUT you support a guy that kicked off his bid for president with that statement therefore you are associated with that logic as all Trump supporters are in the eyes of many.
So by this definition I have no idea what Aleppo is?

Just because you're voting for someone doesn't mean you agree with their stance or statement on every single issue....
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:55 AM   #103
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Sickmint, you proved my point. You are an egomaniac. My brother is the same way. My other brothers and I haven't spoken with him in over a decade. It's your opinion that matters and everyone else is wrong.
you claimed amnesty was politically impossible. i showed you it happened within my lifetime, probably your lifetime too. there's no difference of opinion here, it's you not even doing a modicum of research for something that even without that historic precedent, would likely be economically inevitable.

you also quoted my attempt at a more accurate analogy mexican in response to jason's, calling me egotistical. get real dude, his analogy was straight up dishonest.

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I should have inserted "in today's political climate" amnesty would be political suicide for the republicans. I'll insert a disclaimer saying that is my opinion and not fact since politics can be tricky. I know you'll reply with something witty.
really, per this Poll: Majority opposes deporting Dreamers only 15% support deporting them. per this totally different poll Poll: Two-thirds of Republicans back citizenship for DACA recipients | TheHill 66% of republicans support a pathway to citizenship. much of my family are straight ticket republican voters. they all support amnesty. you could have added "in today's political climate" - and you'd still be wrong. let's look at the opposite. the highest number i could find casually searching for a deportation policy is 37% among republicans here. Not Even the Reddest States Support Deportation

here is an opportunity where you can chime in that all polls are always wrong, or at least they are definitely wrong when they disagree with you, and how you understand the political climate better because of your gut feelings though.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:14 AM   #104
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When sickmint goes on his bizarre long typed rants it isn't even really him. There is no doubt he wrote a software bot to endlessly argue on forums.

Either that or he has aspergers. In which case I'm sorry for giving crap, I was not aware.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-au...erger-syndrome
sometimes i may try repeat something or try to make the same point from a different angle, it could be aspergers or it could be an attempt to try and shoehorn a new or different idea into someone's head, you can conclude whichever way you'd like.

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Errr, actually immigrant households have significantly higher use of wealthfare rates than native citizens.

https://cis.org/Report/Welfare-Use-I...ive-Households
sure, certainly including legal, that doesn't means mexicans illegally came here to steal your hot pockets and sit on your couch. clearly they are working, i'm sure trump himself has a ton working for him, they are a legitimate portion of the labor force even. that cis report has also been well skewered by cato for methodology and presentation.

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That said, I can argue that they are causing people to talk about a $15/hr minimum wage etc. instead of there being a gap in demand that causes wages to naturally rise. When you're importing millions of workers it has an effect on the unskilled labor market.
the 15 is from it being calculated (somehow somewhere) as a 'living wage' and i think immigrants have had little to do with that. if you are talking about income stagnation in general, that is going on at tiers well above low/entry level skills. a lazy google but you can see figure 4 here: Wage Stagnation in Nine Charts | Economic Policy Institute
the middle wage is 50th percentile - yet you can see it really hasn't done much. i doubt it would show much correlation with immigrant flows either. under this theory too, employers would pay more and get the talent they need in arkansas, although it seems this measure is regarded as a failure everywhere. What Donald Trump Can Learn from Alabamaís Failed Anti-Immigration Law
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:26 AM   #105
 
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Originally Posted by sickmint79 View Post
you claimed amnesty was politically impossible. i showed you it happened within my lifetime, probably your lifetime too. there's no difference of opinion here, it's you not even doing a modicum of research for something that even without that historic precedent, would likely be economically inevitable.

you also quoted my attempt at a more accurate analogy mexican in response to jason's, calling me egotistical. get real dude, his analogy was straight up dishonest.



really, per this Poll: Majority opposes deporting Dreamers only 15% support deporting them. per this totally different poll Poll: Two-thirds of Republicans back citizenship for DACA recipients | TheHill 66% of republicans support a pathway to citizenship. much of my family are straight ticket republican voters. they all support amnesty. you could have added "in today's political climate" - and you'd still be wrong. let's look at the opposite. the highest number i could find casually searching for a deportation policy is 37% among republicans here. Not Even the Reddest States Support Deportation

here is an opportunity where you can chime in that all polls are always wrong, or at least they are definitely wrong when they disagree with you, and how you understand the political climate better because of your gut feelings though.
You mean like all those polls that had your girl Hillary winning in a landslide? Again I must bow to the all mighty sickmint.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:34 AM   #106
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You mean like all those polls that had your girl Hillary winning in a landslide? Again I must bow to the all mighty sickmint.
uh huh right.

our big difference isn't that we disagree on the political climate - it's that i can point to overwhelming amounts of support for the position i hold, and you can point to absolutely nothing.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:35 AM   #107
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Anything right of communism is a hate group according to them.

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really, per this Poll: Majority opposes deporting Dreamers only 15% support deporting them. per this totally different poll Poll: Two-thirds of Republicans back citizenship for DACA recipients | TheHill 66% of republicans support a pathway to citizenship. much of my family are straight ticket republican voters. they all support amnesty. you could have added "in today's political climate" - and you'd still be wrong. let's look at the opposite. the highest number i could find casually searching for a deportation policy is 37% among republicans here. Not Even the Reddest States Support Deportation

here is an opportunity where you can chime in that all polls are always wrong, or at least they are definitely wrong when they disagree with you, and how you understand the political climate better because of your gut feelings though.
I will say this. Honestly, I'm a pragmatist and realize that we're not going to export millions of people. It's just reality. That said, don't conflate the idea of tighter, more permanent border controls with amnesty. One should not come without the other, it will just lead to another wave of people coming seeking the next amnesty. It's not like they will have an amnesty and stick out a no vacancy sign.

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sure, certainly including legal, that doesn't means mexicans illegally came here to steal your hot pockets and sit on your couch. clearly they are working, i'm sure trump himself has a ton working for him, they are a legitimate portion of the labor force even. that cis report has also been well skewered by cato for methodology and presentation.[/url]
If you have a population of millions who are collecting wealth fare they are taking my money. Plain and simple. I am not of a low enough income where I get out more taxes than I put in.

I actually did lawn care at a point in my life, yeah it was only a season but the guy I worked for did not use illegals. You know who consistently under cut him on jobs? Illegals. He's not in that business any more. I mean, I've talked with a yard crew that was getting paid $4-5 an hour, or you'd have a dude who'd bring his whole family in to do landscaping.

I have an in law who did janitorial work. You know who consistently under cut him? Illegals. I mean, to the point he literally walked in on the whole family doing the work one night at a school he was contracted to do stuff at. They had taken over his janitorial work (he was doing floors still) because the rate he was going to get was so low he couldn't afford to do it.

Both were willing to do the job despite claims "no one wants those jobs," but how do you compete with a family of laborers compared to your own labor input or having to pay employees? It was surely against child labor laws, but such laws do not apply when the person is working illegally anyways.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:37 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Mr_Roboto View Post
Anything right of communism is a hate group according to them.


dude I started reading the link you posted and immediately felt like i was reading something SUPER biased.

that's all i was getting at...
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:43 AM   #109
 
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uh huh right.

our big difference isn't that we disagree on the political climate - it's that i can point to overwhelming amounts of support for the position i hold, and you can point to absolutely nothing.
I just did point to the fact that polls can be way off.

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Old 01-16-2018, 09:49 AM   #110
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dude I started reading the link you posted and immediately felt like i was reading something SUPER biased.

that's all i was getting at...
I can give you that. It was just the top rando search result on Google. Could be fake news.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:53 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Mr_Roboto View Post
I can give you that. It was just the top rando search result on Google. Could be fake news.
I can't imagine having to write a research paper or something like it nowadays with how even more ridiculous the internet has become
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:54 AM   #112
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I can't imagine having to write a research paper or something like it nowadays with how even more ridiculous the internet has become
I don't know if half of them get read in reality. I included a piece of satire in one of my papers in college, it never got noticed.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:57 AM   #113
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In grade school I wrote " You aren't actually even reading this, I know it" in the middle of a lengthy paper.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:18 AM   #114
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Anything right of communism is a hate group according to them.
i will agree i don't find the SPLC the most fair arbiter of that.

however i don't find cis trustworthy at all. here is one of i believe several articles cato has done on them, which all seem like legitimate critiques.

https://www.cato.org/blog/cis-exagge...nt-welfare-use

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I will say this. Honestly, I'm a pragmatist and realize that we're not going to export millions of people. It's just reality. That said, don't conflate the idea of tighter, more permanent border controls with amnesty. One should not come without the other, it will just lead to another wave of people coming seeking the next amnesty. It's not like they will have an amnesty and stick out a no vacancy sign.
as the post i just linked to jason shows, i have been advocating for amnesty with tighter borders for over a decade. my opposition to more wall isn't because i don't want a tighter border, it's because i don't believe the costs vs. benefits is going to be anywhere near positive.

i think it will be like some of those protectionist trade policies that happen once in a while to save some type of jobs, which you later can be cost out to something ridiculous, like "hey we saved 300 people's job's at bill's tire manufacturing plant, it only cost consumers and taxpayers $400k per job. boy was that totally worth it!"

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If you have a population of millions who are collecting wealth fare they are taking my money. Plain and simple. I am not of a low enough income where I get out more taxes than I put in.
which they don't have easy access to. and that's certainly not why they come. they come for economic opportunity as humans have migrated for forever. as they get integrated into the economy their kids will take less welfare as well as be more entrepreneurial than native citizens as well. i don't feel i get my money's worth out of taxes either, join the club. this isn't the place with the most fat i'd start trimming.

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I actually did lawn care at a point in my life, yeah it was only a season but the guy I worked for did not use illegals. You know who consistently under cut him on jobs? Illegals. He's not in that business any more. I mean, I've talked with a yard crew that was getting paid $4-5 an hour, or you'd have a dude who'd bring his whole family in to do landscaping.

I have an in law who did janitorial work. You know who consistently under cut him? Illegals. I mean, to the point he literally walked in on the whole family doing the work one night at a school he was contracted to do stuff at. They had taken over his janitorial work (he was doing floors still) because the rate he was going to get was so low he couldn't afford to do it.

Both were willing to do the job despite claims "no one wants those jobs," but how do you compete with a family of laborers compared to your own labor input or having to pay employees? It was surely against child labor laws, but such laws do not apply when the person is working illegally anyways.
i'm pretty sure if you get reported for having your family at work you're gonna have a bad time. you make it sound like a native born citizen can't compete because every time i see one undercutting a native, i should really be seeing a family of them doing it! you've also presented schrodinger's immigrant, too lazy to work but having an army of even child laborers do work.

what do those guys do now? and i won't argue that illegal immigrant flow can be disruptive, particularly to low and entry skilled jobs, and that's part of the reason why i support a strong border. but that's an entirely separate concept from amnesty or deportation for the people already here and integrated into the economy.

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I just did point to the fact that polls can be way off.

and all i did point to the fact that there is literally nothing anywhere whatsoever supporting your opinion.



i get it, i'm at work now, i have people who write programs that take 60 minutes in a language they've worked on for years. i rewrite the same programs to take 5 seconds then provide the minor examples of what i changed so that they can apply the practice to their other work. they proceed... to do nothing. we just have different opinions on how to do things man. and all those opinions are of course equal.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:20 AM   #115
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In grade school I wrote " You aren't actually even reading this, I know it" in the middle of a lengthy paper.
pay somebody $50 you probably get shit like that published in a hokey science journal.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:35 AM   #116
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Cato isn't without its own biases.

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Cato_Institute

Supposedly Cato is funded by the Koch Brothers.

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcom...ww.google.com
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:13 AM   #117
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Cato isn't without its own biases.

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Cato_Institute

Supposedly Cato is funded by the Koch Brothers.

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcom...ww.google.com
i don't think anyone is. cato is still pointing out legit problems with that piece.
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:50 PM   #118
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Bezo will do whatever he wants w/ his funds.

To point out, which @sickmint79 would know, I believe Dreamers are primarily from El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Mexico. Granted, they are from other countries too, but when referencing, you guys are discussing folks from beyond our neighboring country of Mexico.

Addressing the common labeling:

Dreamer = Kids from Mexico
Illegals = Individuals from Mexico

In reality, folks from Mexico only make up a percentage
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:13 PM   #119
 
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awkwaaaard there's a thread where you are (poorly) claiming i'm a devil's advocate, on immigration, where i quote and respond directly to you, and show you years of history of me saying the same thing: it's this post right here

in the post right above it i don't propose but claim that simply taking the money we'd spend on a wall and using it to improve mexico would likely curb more illegal immigrants than any change in wall. i'm sure i've made the point in regards to immigration flows based on improving mexican/declining us economies too, as well as commented on that marbles video that the solution is to improve economies back in the countries people try to escape from. i've certainly said people come here for economic opportunity, they'd certainly be much more likely to stay home should they have it, rather than condemning their kids to grow up in the poverty they had to endure.
What's awkward is that you are so full of yourself that you think I remember every single one of your posts. I now remembered why I avoid replying to you and just overlooking your posts.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:34 PM   #120
 
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Superiority complex is what i self diagnosed him with long time ago........
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:56 AM   #121
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What's awkward is that you are so full of yourself that you think I remember every single one of your posts. I now remembered why I avoid replying to you and just overlooking your posts.
i don't expect you to remember every single one of my posts. now when you say something is new, and you say i switch what i say to play devil's advocate, then i specifically show you i've been saying the same thing, for 10 years, even directly to you, then yes - i expect you to to remember it as well as cut out the devil's advocate bullshit. but i suppose i'll have to say the same thing again in 6 months.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:06 PM   #122
 
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.


I still don't understand how illegal's are allowed to walk through our schools free & clear??
How are they going to graduate and get a job when they are illegal??
How do they get to school, they are illegal, shouldn't have a drivers license.
How do they get a license/certification if required for their occupation, they are illegal.

So again, it's his money, do whatever you want, but wouldn't an immigration lawyer be more useful to more people for that 33 million???

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