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Old 11-22-2017, 07:10 PM   #1
 
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I realize I don’t post here hardly ever tho I *am* a part of the Facebook “Sunday Cars and Coffee” group and understand there’s a bit of crossover between this crowd and that one. Making this a FB group post would probably break FB so I'm linking those folks back here - hope that's cool. This purely hypothetical topic is somewhat on-topic for the group here so I thought I’d pose it.

Note this this is purely a hypothetical and not reflecting on any real life events. Any similarities to real life events is merely coincidental. Really!

It’s a long. Here goes:

So say you land a new job. It pays MUCH better than the old one - like, close to double. Woo-hoo! As a proper car guy and celebratory measure to yourself, you opt to build a new garage mahal behind the house. Your dream garage, with all the fixin's. Lift, tookbox, air compressor, storage space, heat, A/C, etc. You love using your garage to build giant oversized 4x4’s, semi trucks, and restore big, heavy construction and farm equipment and having the space to do it will be excellent.

You're a handy guy. You've done plenty of construction work in the past. You'd actually consider construction work a hobby of yours - you often help out friends and family with their work, etc. You've got friends who are professional construction guys come by and comment at how good your work is, even offer you legit jobs over the quality of your work. "If you EVER need a job, call me, I could use someone like you..."

You find out some friends of yours are garage building experts, together they own a garage building company. You pick their brain about materials to use, things to look out for and consider, etc. when building your new garage.

In talking, he surprises you with an offer to build it FOR you. THE ultimate garage to let you work on big equipment. You're concerned about budget and being able to afford it - but holy cow, he offers to price it at (his estimate) a 30% discount, which squeaks it juuuuust ever so slightly above the top of what you budgeted to do it yourself. Included is more stuff than you would have considered in your original plan, even - this thing is going to be the ULTIMATE. You know and trust the friend. You shake hands, leave a 30% deposit, agree that the garage will be ready to go in the spring. As part of the deal, you're made aware (and are 100% fine with) that they'll be building your garage using, in PART, reclaimed and leftover pieces from previous garage builds they've done. Beams, overhead doors, windows, etc. they might have salvaged from garages they've torn down, etc. Saves both parties money from having to buy ALL NEW and contributes to the reason the "deal" is good.

Over the winter, buddy's company starts building the garage. Partway through, one of their guys screws up and damages the concrete that they poured for the foundation and floor. "Our bad. The general contractor is a real idiot, in fact he's screwed up a bunch of other jobs for us, too. We're taking him off your job. To make it up to you, since this will delay things, we'll use better, special, custom concrete with that cool special colored specked epoxy coating that they use in John Deere dealerships AND we'll install heating circuits in the floor, so you'll have heated concrete floors."

This means the big party you were gonna throw to celebrate the new garage gets delayed. BUT you're getting some upgrades so.... cool.

As you get closer to "move in" time, buddy calls you. "Hey, if you're gonna use this garage in hot or cold weather, we'd recommend you buy upgraded insulation from us." Well, wait... so the garage buildout didn't include freakin’ insulation? "Well it *did* but you should really upgrade to this better stuff, otherwise you run the risk of the garage freezing in the winter and it could damage the foundation. We can’t guarantee the survival of the garage if you don’t use this special improved insulation.” Ok, fine. You don't negotiate, you just agree to the upcharge.

Fast forward to, finally, delivery date. They are working up until past midnight (think "home improvement shows" where the "reveal" is always a tight deadline...) You're happy, everything looks great! You take the keys and go to bed. You start moving stuff into the garage the following day when you start noticing things. The first big problem you notice: the electricity is spotty, it comes and goes and blows fuses when you try to run both the lights and your air compressor. You complain, and first your buddy tells you, "You're just doing it wrong, you just don’t know how to properly power up an air compressor“. You doubt yourself, “Weelll okay, you’re the expert” and start to take advice from him on how to properly power up an air compressor… but you get nowhere. Then he convinces you to throw some of your own money at it to fix it. “Maybe it just needs a new fuse panel - we put a reclaimed one in there when we built it, that had been lying around the shop for some time. It should be fine but maybe it’s not.” So you install a new fuse panel yourself, out of your own pocket. That doesn’t solve it so you swap out the lights, even buy a new compressor - but none of it fixes it. You eventually just stop using the garage until they come up with a fix, you’re so disgusted with the basics not working properly. After a few months of non-use, they finally agree, "Ok, something must be wrong" BUT they require you use their special out-of-state electrician, who lives down in Florida, to come fix it.

So some more weeks pass, the out-of-state specialist finally has time in his busy schedule and comes up. Spends 2 days in your garage... and boom, it's fixed. Things needed to be re-wired but you're good now. You're super happy, and finally let yourself relax and ”officially" move in. You order up a new lift to be installed, move in the rest of your tools, etc.

A week after the electrician leaves, your lift arrives and you install it. You put a 1-ton pickup truck on the lift to do an oil change before rolling the vintage Farmall steamroller into the shop for more major work - you’re just excited to finally get to USE the dang garage! As you hit the power button on the lift to start raising the truck - the concrete foundation under it cracks! The whole floor shatters, even the foundation gets damaged. It cracks so bad you cannot use the garage - the floor is completely uneven, you can't drive on it, can't roll your toolbox across it, the failure even damages the cooling tubes inside of it and the electrical system shorts out. You have to hire a special tow truck to come get the pickup out of the garage.

You're furious. You call your buddy. At first, buddy blames you. "The lift was too heavy, it's your fault the concrete is damaged. Putting a big truck on it is abuse." Then he says "You must've rolled a toolbox along it too quickly, I see evidence here of scuff marks on the concrete" and "Didn't I see Facebook photos of you with a Farmall? You weren't going to put THAT in there were you?" In addition, gives you with a bunch of other odd excuses that don't make sense, ESPECIALLY considering you were very clear from the beginning of HOW you'd be using your garage. Tools, lifts, HEAVY trucks and equipment, etc.

Eventually, your buddy acquiesces. "Don't tell anybody, but it looks like that particular mix of concrete that was used , that we get from our own special supplier, was bad. We had another garage fall down just last week due to the concrete failing there, just like yours. So we'll make it right. However, we pumped a lot of money into upgrading you on that floor, with the extra heating, etc. and my company just can't afford to re-do it and give you the same upgrades (heating, epoxy coating, etc) unless you want to pay for it this time (at a cost of more than 50% of what you paid for the whole project). So if you want to cut us a check, we’ll get started - OR, we can offer to put a standard, basic concrete floor in, at no cost to you. Note it won't be able to handle as much weight as the old stuff, it won't have the cool epoxy coating you wanted, it won't be stain resistant like you originally wanted, and it'll chip if you drop tools on it, but it will be enough to do what you need to do. To make it up we'll throw in a used but working-order ADT security system we pulled from one of our other projects."

So you say, fine, just give me the basic floor. You’ll live with it. At this point it was one year since you gave them the first 30% deposit to start building it. You want the garage you paid for!

So they start on replacing all the concrete. "It will be done next spring. March 1st", they say. Fine. This time you put everything in writing, as after the add-ons with the insulation, etc. were all done “handshake deal” last time around and came back to bite you.

In the meantime, buddy's company has some internal turmoil. Several workers get fired. Another one (second time this has happened) of the owners gets forcefully pushed out (so it goes from a 3-way partnership to 1). You feel bad for them, offer your services for free to come help out on other builds they have going on the weekends, but they decline. Buddy asks you "bear with me, I'm doing my best" and you remain calm. At some point you find out they're using the general contractor that screwed up the FIRST concrete floor. What the.... ???

A few more months in, you find out they're not just replacing the concrete - they're replacing the entire interior of the garage.... essentially everything but the main structure. Lights, electric, heating, drywall, roof, etc. Apparently they couldn't figure out how to make the new concrete work with the previous pieces so they're swapping it ALL out. Fine, whatever, not paying for it so what’s it matter to you?

But as time progresses, and you ask for progress reports, you get responses that don't make sense. March 1st comes and goes. You figure out you might be being lied to. "It just needs glass in the windows then it's done." Then next week, "It just needs weatherproofing on the outside." Then the next week, "We accidentally damaged the exterior siding when replacing one of the doors so we need all new siding, then it'll be done.” Then three weeks after that they tell you “the siding requires special installation people to install it properly and doggone it, gosh-darnit-heck, would you believe the union that employs those special workers that installs the siding is on strike? So we have to wait.” Or a special favorite, at 5pm on Friday, you get a phone call: "I'm putting Bob on your project, 100% dedicated, to get you done. He's scheduled to start working on it exclusively on Monday" ... then 3 days later, 9am Monday morning you get an email, "I fired Bob this morning." When asking later in the week if you’re still on track for to be completed soon, "Well, I mean, I told you I fired Bob so... what do you want from me?" Etc.

You get to a point where it's been almost 2 years since you originally agreed to have them build you the garage. You give them a 6-week deadline: "Finish my garage, I'm moving back in during last week of August." At this point you've also retained an attorney, leaving an implied "or else" at the end of the new deadline. They don't know your attorney is working in the background preparing a lawsuit for you.

They scramble. Lots more excuses. You deliberately play dumb and cheery, and “oh wow another setback? Gosh that stinks for you guys! It sure will feel great to know this will all be over soon, I can’t wait to finally move in in August!” Your wife is now bent - she's angry about it all, tired of hearing about it. You know the saying, "Happy wife, happy life"... and when the wife isn't happy, YOU aren't happy. The dream garage now becomes a HUGE sore spot at home - and the wife refuses to set foot in the garage.

You connect with another customer of theirs who is in a similar predicament. That other customer also just so happens to be a lawyer. He tells you he hinted “lawsuit” to them, and their immediate response was, “We’ll just BK the company then - and then nobody gets anything.” You relay that to your own attorney, he says “Hmm yes that’s definitely a risk.” Still, you’re prepared to file the day after the August deadline if they don’t deliver.

End of August arrives. Holy crap - they get it done. "It's all set. We even gave you extra drywall (originally just the walls were drywalled, the ceiling was exposed - but this time they drywalled in the ceiling, etc.) We painted for you, too. So sorry it took so long." They even went ahead and reinstalled the lift for you, moved your toolboxes in, etc. and told you it’s ready to be used as intended.

You recall there was supposed to be an ADT system, but it's missing. They tell you, "Oh well you made that agreement to get a free ADT system with owner #2 that’s not here anymore, so that deal's void now."

Fine. Whatever. "Just give me my garage", you think to yourself. You calm down. It's finally here. On the surface, it looks good. Thank you, thank you for seeing it through and making good on your word. Plus, a sigh of relief that you don’t have to cut another check, equivalent to 30% of the total invested so far in this garage, on an attorney to file your lawsuit.

You start moving things in - and almost immediately... you notice things wrong. The drywall, everywhere, is barely attached. The concrete floor is uneven. The doors are drafty, don't close all the way, and the hinges are SUPER loose. The glass in the windows isn't sealed, lets TONS of water in when it rains - come to find out they didn't install any of the weatherstripping!

For being a "new" building, it's really run down - feels more like a crusty 65-year old country garage than new construction.

Then you find a bunch of cracks and holes in the drywall.

You have enough and complain to your buddy. "Hey man this drywall is all F'd up." Buddy tells you, "Well I live in a 45-year old Winnebago down by the river, so you gotta understand, what I'm used to might be different from you. You're a smart and handy guy. If you don't like the drywall work, just replace the drywall yourself."

You grumble... but F it. It’s been two years, you’re not waiting another year for them to come fix it, especially since you have the expertise to just do it yourself. However, as you go to replace the drywall, you discover that a bunch of the reclaimed beams, joists and studs they used as part of the main structure are damaged and rotted beyond repair and require complete replacement. It’s amazing the building is even standing!

Then you find out the lift isn't bolted down to the concrete - in fact it's ready to fall down (and would have if you'd put anything other than a bicycle on it). In addition, the overhead door jams constantly, the side door won't lock, and on occasion you get sparks coming out of one of the outlets.

You discover that you essentially need to tear this garage down to the studs, inspect everything yourself, and start almost completely over. Your estimate is that it'll likely take another ~20% of the total investment to actually bring it up to a state where it's inhabitable.

Would it be considered unreasonable for you to expect them, experts, who sourced ALL the materials for the job, new OR reclaimed, to inspect and ensure that the materials they sourced were at the very least in good, working order? To ensure that what you got in the end was essentially a new product, even if, through their own mistakes, this job wound up costing them a lot?

Or should you actually completely hold them harmless regarding the quality of the work, and completely excuse the damaged studs, windows, etc. since those were, while acquired BY THEM, were acquired as "used"?

What if you were to find out through the grapevine that your (now ex.. FUCK THAT GUY) buddy feels YOUR reaction is completely UNreasonable, and that in the end, since HE had to replace the concrete twice, and completely do interior of the building twice, all at his expense, that HE is ultimately the one "wronged" in the whole ordeal. That you driving trucks into the garage, the trucks and heavy equipment that was discussed at length before they took the deposit and were clear that’s the use, was now considered “abuse” in his mind. It should have been used to hold Matchbox Cars and nothing else.

Would YOU be in the wrong? Are THEY right? Did THEY do YOU the favor by even honoring the repairs the first time around?
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:21 PM   #2
 
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:27 PM   #3
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I'd get an ice pack for the ass raping you received.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:44 PM   #4
 
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tl;dr

Cliffs?
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:46 PM   #5
 
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Let's say it wasn't a garage, but a car that was being restored or built. You could have done the work yourself, but decided to have your mechanic buddy do it all for a discount. At every deadline, something is wrong. Or it doesn't work properly. Or some of the parts aren't quite up to spec. He takes it back and keeps fixing it with different workers that have come and gone. Ultimately, there are still problems even after all is said and done. Your buddy no longer wants the hassle, and pretty much says that's all he's gonna do.

If you paid for a job to be done, and it wasn't done properly, it either needs to get redone or get your money back. Since it sounds like none of that is going to happen, then getting an attorney needs to happen next.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:53 PM   #6
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First and foremost business and friendship does not mix.

Once you start going down that path things rarely work out, both parties usually end up with different expectations of what the deal is all about, jimmies get rustled and you end up with a loss of a friend and money.

Sounds like a lawyer is your only way forward
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:33 PM   #7
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Damn that sucks. I'd say you got fucked on that one.

You the same omniGLH from the GolfMK6 ChiChat?
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:54 PM   #8
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Jesus Christ, is this a college thesis paper or something?
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:12 AM   #9
 
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A few thoughts -

You should have walked away and or sued the guy when the floor cracked from using the lift and you had already needed to have the electrical work redone.

The whole situation is suspicious. The insulation thing early on is strange and should have been a warning. Combine that with all the extensive rework done when they did the floor the last time reminds me of the old Hennesey Viper story where he was selling parts off of people's cars to fund and complete other projects. Like a giant shell game. Looks like something similar was going on with your garage build mixed with incompetency of some of the subcontractors who were involved.

The guy could have built your garage, took it back apart to use the parts for someone else's garage, then substituted other (lesser?) materials to build yours back again. You ended up with the left overs of the left overs.

I would sue the shit out of him on principle at this point and bankrupt him if that's what it came to if only to prevent this from happening to other people in the future. Win the judgement and get his wages garnished and this will follow him around for years to come.

Also while we're talking in hypoteticals here - would be convenient if the garage accidentally burned down at this point and insurance pays to replace the total loss.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:49 AM   #10
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If the concrete was poured to spec for what you suggested you would be doing with it (rebuilding all sorts of large machines), it should have never cracked in the first place - so that's a shit excuse to hide behind to start with.

You know how the old saying goes.... if you want a job done right, do it yourself! Never fails to surprise me how many places this applies in life.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:04 AM   #11
 
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Appreciate some of the feedback, folks. Glad to see I'm not crazy (in this hypothetical situation, of course) and my expectations were not unreasonable.

100% correct - if you want it done right, DO IT YOURSELF.

I used to do all my "custom garage building" myself because I couldn't afford to both HAVE the "custom garage" AND pay someone to build/maintain it. I always took the time to learn to do it "right" because any other way would just cost me more in the long run.

Now I see that I *still* have to do it myself.... just now, instead of it being a case of "I can't afford to pay someone to do it", it's "it needs to be done right."

*sigh*

Lesson learned!
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:06 AM   #12
 
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Let's say it wasn't a garage, but a car that was being restored or built. You could have done the work yourself, but decided to have your mechanic buddy do it all for a discount. At every deadline, something is wrong. Or it doesn't work properly. Or some of the parts aren't quite up to spec. He takes it back and keeps fixing it with different workers that have come and gone. Ultimately, there are still problems even after all is said and done. Your buddy no longer wants the hassle, and pretty much says that's all he's gonna do.

If you paid for a job to be done, and it wasn't done properly, it either needs to get redone or get your money back. Since it sounds like none of that is going to happen, then getting an attorney needs to happen next.
Funny how easily the topics could be swapped around a bit to cars vs. garages and still make sense, eh?

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Old 11-27-2017, 11:13 AM   #13
 
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You the same omniGLH from the GolfMK6 ChiChat?
Possibly
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Old 11-27-2017, 12:22 PM   #14
 
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You find out some friends of yours are garage building experts.
No, no they're not.

I hope you have as much stuff documented as possible, but you may be screwed on a lot of things with the "handshake" deals.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:16 AM   #15
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secret is safe here. Since it isnít posted over there Iím guessing there is a reason.
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:24 PM   #16
 
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No, no they're not.

I hope you have as much stuff documented as possible, but you may be screwed on a lot of things with the "handshake" deals.
Yeah.

Hypothetically... it's documented up the wazzoo, starting at the point where they had to repour the concrete floor to the thinner stuff. Until then I'd run 100% on handshakes and smiles. From there I documented everything (hypothetically) - and any verbal conversations were recapped in email.

Still, my hypothetical attorney suggested essentially what you and others have said: I'm more or less screwed. Suing someone is worthless unless they have something to take. If they've already threatened BK once... sounds like they'd be pretty likely to actually just DO it.

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secret is safe here. Since it isn’t posted over there I’m guessing there is a reason.
The hypothetical story doesn't involve anyone there, but there are some folks there who might draw connections to purely coincidentally similar real-life events they may know about...
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:55 PM   #17
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Cliffs?
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