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Old 02-28-2016, 07:28 PM   #1
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Default A good read for our greenhorns- Intervention

So I read alot on carrying and actual scenarios. I've got hours and hours just sitting on my gun forum reading and reading. One thing that hasn't really ever been covered that much is intervention. Yes we know some states have a 3rd party law, but it boils down to do you really know the situation. I'd hope that all of you who carry read through this cause even I learned a thing or two.



The dangers of intervention

The following is a commentary carrying the same title as this thread. It was written by my good friend Evan Marshall. Evan was my mentor when I got into gun writing back in the late '70's. He spent years on the Detroit PD both on patrol and in the Homicide Division. He's been there and done that. I pulled this from his website and he graciously allowed me to reproduce it here.

"There has been a lot of space devoted in the Stopping Power Message Board and other message boards to the presentation of hypothetical situations and a request for solutions. The problem with such imaginary situations is that there is none of the untidiness and ambiguity that exists in the real world.

Please understand that Iím not ridiculing those who present such situations or those who attempt to solve them. I consider those who post on this board as friends I havenít met yet. As your friend I feel a moral responsibility to share my observations based on my actual experiences in real incidents. I donít want to see good guys and gals get their selves in a jam by jumping into situations that are unclear and fraught with danger.
Let me be perfectly frank. Those who think that intervention will bring fame, honors, glory, etc., are delusional. I once prevented the rape of a woman by butt stroking her attacker with a shotgun while he was in the act of penetrating her. Weeks later she made an excessive force complaint against me. She thought I should have been more restrained in my behavior! On another occasion, my partner and I chased a holdup man into a store where he took a woman hostage. He then threatened to kill her (he had just shot two people in a bank and we believed him!). My partner shot the bad guys three times. One of those bullets slightly grazed the womanís finger and she sued us for endangering her!

If the rescued individual doesnít make life miserable for you in the courts, they just might kill you. Iím aware of four instances where officers responded to a domestic violence situation and when the wife realized the breadwinner was going to jail she assaulted and killed her would-be rescuers.

My Tac Unit partner and I backed up a precinct unit on a domestic assault arrest. As the husband was being handcuffed the wife disappeared down the hallway. I motioned to my partner and we followed her down the hall with guns drawn. We found her in the bedroom loading a Winchester .30-.30 lever action rifle. We quickly disarmed and cuffed her. As we brought her into the living room a precinct sergeant ordered us to let her go. When we refused to do so, he attempted to remove her from our custody. When told him that if he didnít back off we would arrest him, he left to complain to our supervisors.

If ingratitude isnít enough we need to understand that things are almost never what they seem. What appears to be a car jacking may be the attempt by a father to recover a child from a noncustodial mother. Our intervention may not only be ill advised but we may be acting in violation of a court order. The fact that we are unaware of a court order will not save the day.

Even if the situation is exactly as it appears and youíre even in accordance with the law, you need to understand one simple fact-the law is what the local prosecutor says it is. Do you really want to spend 7 years in jail waiting for an appeal to be heard and your conviction overturned?
I once got sued for in excess of $100,000 for handcuffing a suspect. The city settled out of court even though my actions were totally legal. Anybody who read about this settlement in the paper would assume I was guilty of inappropriate behavior or some illegality. The city paid the settlement and provided legal counsel. Had I been acting as a private citizen I would have subjected my family to decades of poverty in order to pay the judgment and attorney fees.

Situations that involve significant injury or death are frightenly expensive. My partners and I were sued for $17.5 million dollars in the fatal shooting of a holdup man. The legal fees alone would have run into seven figures. We were accused of being blood thirsty, trigger-happy racist cops. The media conveniently forgot we had intervened in the severe beating and robbery of an elderly woman.

All that being said and experienced, I continued to intervene. However, people should be reminded I was a cop-it was my job. I spent 20 years going in harms way for total strangers. Would I do that today? Probably not. I no longer have the deep pockets of the City of Detroit behind me. Sound callous? Well, would you be willing to jeopardize everything you own and your familyís security for a total stranger? Would you be willing to lose your home, your cars, and your retirement to play Knight of the Round Table?

Apparently some people are certainly willing to fantasize about intervening in a hypothetical situation. Some may consider this harmless musing, but I find it troubling. Tactical planning involves assessing all the potential problems carefully and realistically looking at the cost of such intervention. Role-playing or gaming looks at it through rose colored glasses and ignores the cold hard reality of a personís involvement in a deadly force event.
I carry a gun to protect myself and the people I love from the Monsters that roam the earth. When Iím away from those that mean everything to me, I carry so I can return to them. Are there circumstances where I would intervene to help a stranger? Yes, but such intervention would be on my terms at my pace. I am not going to jump into a situation with gun drawn.
Rather I would seek cover and carefully evaluate the totality of the circumstance. When I was convinced I knew what is really going on I would respond with the minimum amount of force necessary whether that required drawing my cell phone or my pistol. If all we have is a pistol we have severely limited options. I carry three pistols, oc, cell phone, and a flashlight, and I am a PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructor. I am willing and trained to respond with the appropriate level of force even if that is ďonlyĒ a command voice. I understand the force continuum and know what the appropriate level force is in a given situation. Ignorance of such critical parameters can have horrific consequences.

Those who think the mere display of a weapon will stop hostilities are naÔve in the extreme. The same people we will be confronting know what an appropriate level of force is and when we make outlandish or unjustified threats weíll show our true colors. These people can tell when weíre serious and we will quickly find ourselves disarmed and in real trouble.

Again, we need to avoid rushing in where Angels fear to tread. Remember the most endangered species is good guys and gals. Go with God."
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Old 02-28-2016, 08:32 PM   #2
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Good read. I feel a lot of people don't realize a lot of this and want to play hero.
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Old 02-28-2016, 09:09 PM   #3
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YUP!
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Old 02-29-2016, 07:48 AM   #4
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Good read. I feel a lot of people don't realize a lot of this and want to play hero.
agree with this 100000%
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Old 02-29-2016, 09:05 AM   #5
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All that being said and experienced, I continued to intervene. However, people should be reminded I was a cop-it was my job. I spent 20 years going in harms way for total strangers. Would I do that today? Probably not. I no longer have the deep pockets of the City of Detroit behind me. Sound callous? Well, would you be willing to jeopardize everything you own and your family’s security for a total stranger? Would you be willing to lose your home, your cars, and your retirement to play Knight of the Round Table?
This is absolutely damning of the society and times we live in. No longer is it monetarily feasible nor worth the mental anguish to go to court to defend yourself either as a private citizen or as a serial number to a department/city/government. I don't blame this man one bit and he sure as hell isn't callous.

Unless you or an immediate friend/family/significant other who is with you is the victim, there should be absolutely zero intervention. This isn't the "high times" of America anymore. Every good deed is punished.
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Old 02-29-2016, 09:54 AM   #6
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Good read indeed. I fear the day I have to use my CCW.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:38 AM   #7
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I understand the force continuum and know what the appropriate level force is in a given situation. Ignorance of such critical parameters can have horrific consequences.
I don't know how many times I preach this to people, but it is the tool you need to COMPLETELY know and understand regarding how you can potentially act in any given situation.

Good read. Thanks for posting it Alex.

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Old 02-29-2016, 04:05 PM   #8
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I hope this video will show up here.

I feel stuff like this is adding to the hero mentality.

Really, you're gonna tell a guy to take a head shot next to a loved one? How about pull out your fucking wallet and throw it away from your friend?
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:06 PM   #9
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Here is the YouTube link. I'm on my phone or I would attempt to embed
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:32 PM   #10
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That kid is a pud. 1/2 way through.
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:36 PM   #11
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His support hand needs A LOT of work.
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:43 PM   #12
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And yeah, not such a good message to teach a guy (esp at that skill level) to attempt head shots.
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:49 PM   #13
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That kid is a pud. 1/2 way through.
Dude started talking, definite pud.
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