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Old 09-11-2014, 10:40 AM   #1
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Default Did the ATF just fuck up?

I found this while browsing the /r/gun thread in reddit: ATF approves F1 for new machine-gun, rescinds approval : guns

Which then pointed to ar15.com with the discussion: ATF ruling may have opened door to new machine guns--Pg9 Form 1 APPROVED Pg18 ATF call audio - Page 9 - AR15.COM

The TL;DR of the whole thing is this:

Quote:
BATFE said unincorporated trusts are not persons

Persons are banned from manufacturing machine guns

Trusts are not persons

Therefore, "trusts" sent in Form 1s to apply to build new machine guns.

BATFE approved, then went "Oh shit".
Apparently there were hundreds of these stamps, approved, sent out to "trusts" to be able to manufacture machine guns and then the ATF realized they fucked up. Now they rescinded all the approvals. A lot of people think this could be a huge lawsuit with a possible repeal of the NFA or at least a gaping hole that has now been identified and some big name lawyers could tear that hole open further to get the NFA repealed.

What a time to live in.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:47 AM   #2
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so this means....?
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:57 AM   #3
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so this means....?
These times are a changing.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:58 AM   #4
 
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Explain this to me like I'm five.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:12 AM   #5
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did either of you not read the fucking quote? That is the ELI5 explanation. Be mindful, this is my own interpretation of what I've been reading so if I'm wrong and someone knows better than I do, please correct me.

PERSONS (people, you, me, individuals) cannot manufacture or possess parts of machine guns but trusts can.

People had trusts created and submitted the paperwork on behalf of those trusts to obtain a machine gun.

ATF officials approved hundreds of these forms and sent the tax stamp saying "yes, this trust can build/manufacture a machine gun".

ATF officials realized people were using the trusts to obtain machine guns, despite the fact that not a single part of the law was broken, and have been rescinding the approvals and telling people to send their tax stamp back.

This means the ATF officials have taken the law into their own hands and their own interpretation and are denying people, who are complying with the NFA, their ability to obtain a machine gun through their trust.

Now remember, we're not talking M240B, M2s, or anykind of "machine gun" in the sense you think of, except those ARE included because of the "machine gun" verbiage. Any weapon that continually fires after pressing the trigger and then stops firing when the trigger is released/ammo is depleted is considered a machine gun. If I modified the trigger group on my AR15 to create a full auto condition, my AR15 is now considered a machine gun.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:13 AM   #6
 
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:14 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by GT5.0FACE View Post
did either of you not read the fucking quote? That is the ELI5 explanation. Be mindful, this is my own interpretation of what I've been reading so if I'm wrong and someone knows better than I do, please correct me.

PERSONS (people, you, me, individuals) cannot manufacture or possess parts of machine guns but trusts can.

People had trusts created and submitted the paperwork on behalf of those trusts to obtain a machine gun.

ATF officials approved hundreds of these forms and sent the tax stamp saying "yes, this trust can build/manufacture a machine gun".

ATF officials realized people were using the trusts to obtain machine guns, despite the fact that not a single part of the law was broken, and have been rescinding the approvals and telling people to send their tax stamp back.

This means the ATF officials have taken the law into their own hands and their own interpretation and are denying people, who are complying with the NFA, their ability to obtain a machine gun through their trust.

Now remember, we're not talking M240B, M2s, or anykind of "machine gun" in the sense you think of. Any weapon that continually fires after pressing the trigger and then stops firing when the trigger is released/ammo is depleted is considered a machine gun. If I modified the trigger group on my AR15 to create a full auto condition, my AR15 is now considered a machine gun.
Same thing I took from it.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:18 AM   #8
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So what this means is that the ATF officials who took the law into their own hands (when haven't they?) just royally fucked themselves because they interpreted it how THEY wanted it, not how the actual law is written.

This also means the ATF could be brought to court and one of two things can happen:

1. This NFA repealed completely by the Supreme Court for infringing on lawful gun ownership, namely the machine gun part. There are also a ton of cases people have spouted off that would support this case.

2. This could blow up in our face and trusts are now people and the NFA has to be rewritten to include that verbiage. The problem with this is above: There are many lawsuits in the past that have explicitly stated, trusts are not people. But now suddenly they are if this were to happen?
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:21 AM   #9
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Again, this is my interpretation of it from reading the 23 page thread on ar15.com and I may be wrong somewhere, but that's how I see this.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:23 AM   #10
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I see now
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:24 AM   #11
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So if this blows up to change federal law, will it trickle and change state law? Like say to allow use of suppressors within the state of IL?
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:26 AM   #12
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I should also add outcome 3.

Nothing happens and the powers that be think they're higher than the people who [used to] put them in charge and just say "fuck you, the ATF officials are right".
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:58 AM   #13
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So if this blows up to change federal law, will it trickle and change state law? Like say to allow use of suppressors within the state of IL?

Federal law has no direct affect on state law. This is why it is legal in CO to smoke pot recreationally, but according to federal law it is still illegal. Since CO specifically stated that it won't uphold the federal law, that's why people are able to smoke up and not get into trouble there. Federally, we are allowed to own NFA weapons. In some states ownership of NFA weapons by an individual or trust is perfectly legal, while in others it is not. Fed and state are essentially completely different. This is why each state has its own constitution, too. With that said, in many cases state law usually reflects the sentiments of federal law, or is more strict in certain cases like IL.
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:34 PM   #14
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Federal law has no direct affect on state law. This is why it is legal in CO to smoke pot recreationally, but according to federal law it is still illegal. Since CO specifically stated that it won't uphold the federal law, that's why people are able to smoke up and not get into trouble there. Federally, we are allowed to own NFA weapons. In some states ownership of NFA weapons by an individual or trust is perfectly legal, while in others it is not. Fed and state are essentially completely different. This is why each state has its own constitution, too. With that said, in many cases state law usually reflects the sentiments of federal law, or is more strict in certain cases like IL.
States should allow be to as/less restrictive than federal law.... but not more restrictive
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:04 PM   #15
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States should allow be to as/less restrictive than federal law.... but not more restrictive
I disagree with this. Federal laws cover broad topics with broad laws that cannot encompass the specific situations that state and local government find themselves in. If states had their hands tied in regards to enforcing state and local reasonable laws and code during those situations then chaos would probably result. I get it that the IL gun laws suck ass, but to not allow states somewhat free reign to govern on their own would be a mistake.
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:27 PM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by GT5.0FACE View Post
So what this means is that the ATF officials who took the law into their own hands (when haven't they?) just royally fucked themselves because they interpreted it how THEY wanted it, not how the actual law is written.

This also means the ATF could be brought to court and one of two things can happen:

1. This NFA repealed completely by the Supreme Court for infringing on lawful gun ownership, namely the machine gun part. There are also a ton of cases people have spouted off that would support this case.

2. This could blow up in our face and trusts are now people and the NFA has to be rewritten to include that verbiage. The problem with this is above: There are many lawsuits in the past that have explicitly stated, trusts are not people. But now suddenly they are if this were to happen?
Well corporations are people now, so why not trusts? What if the trust wants to donate to a political campaign?
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:27 PM   #17
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I think he means more towards laws that are already on record as federal laws/regulations.

I.E. the second amendment. "Shall not be infringed" boom. Done. You cannot limit any law that directly or indirectly facilitates a hardship to own a firearm. It does not say "with proper identification" so why are states allowed to do so? This is all rhetoric, I'm not actually creating ana rgument. now say, versus speeding laws. There are no federal laws so that's clearly dictated by state.
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:28 PM   #18
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Well corporations are people now, so why not trusts? What if the trust wants to donate to a political campaign?
But recent lawsuits have ruled that trusts are in fact NOT people. So suddenly because we want to limit firearm ownership, according to the ATF trusts ARE people? Which is it?

It's the constant double speak bullshit coming from the feds that these (lawful) gun owners are trying to rip this wide open and make it a scene and a lawsuit.
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:59 PM   #19
 
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But recent lawsuits have ruled that trusts are in fact NOT people. So suddenly because we want to limit firearm ownership, according to the ATF trusts ARE people? Which is it?

It's the constant double speak bullshit coming from the feds that these (lawful) gun owners are trying to rip this wide open and make it a scene and a lawsuit.
My post was somewhat sarcastic but really, since the Supreme Court HAS recently ruled corporations are people, why can't a corporation just apply for a NFA stamp?
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:57 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by rocket5979 View Post
I disagree with this. Federal laws cover broad topics with broad laws that cannot encompass the specific situations that state and local government find themselves in. If states had their hands tied in regards to enforcing state and local reasonable laws and code during those situations then chaos would probably result. I get it that the IL gun laws suck ass, but to not allow states somewhat free reign to govern on their own would be a mistake.
Case by case I can see some benefits
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:12 PM   #21
 
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:23 PM   #22
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My post was somewhat sarcastic but really, since the Supreme Court HAS recently ruled corporations are people, why can't a corporation just apply for a NFA stamp?
Because people can't. It is the fact that trusts are not people that let trusts have NFA machine gun stamps.
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:17 PM   #23
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And it's come to fruition. A lawyer is suing the ATF and Eric Holder over the approval then random disapproval of Form 1 tax stamps that were sent out for machinegun manufacture.

NFA Lawsuits: Hollis v. Holder; Watson v. Holder - 2nd Case filed 11.14.2014 - AR15.COM

Stamboulieh Law, PLLC

I've actually read half of this so far, and it seems like there is a very strong case here: Hollis v. Holder - Complaint
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:27 PM   #24
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There was a letter about a sigbrace and shotguns too.... uh oh
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:43 PM   #25
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And it's come to fruition. A lawyer is suing the ATF and Eric Holder over the approval then random disapproval of Form 1 tax stamps that were sent out for machinegun manufacture.

NFA Lawsuits: Hollis v. Holder; Watson v. Holder - 2nd Case filed 11.14.2014 - AR15.COM

Stamboulieh Law, PLLC

I've actually read half of this so far, and it seems like there is a very strong case here: Hollis v. Holder - Complaint
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As I recall it had something to do with trusts not being considered people, and since people cannot manufacture machine guns after 1986 they wouldn't grant tax stamps. But now since they don't consider a trust a person, a trust could theoretically manufacture a machine gun since it wasn't aginst the (Hughes?) law. Some guy applied for a stamp, and got it but then the ATF shit their pants and told him he better not make a machine gun with it and to return the stamp immediately.
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