VT 302 Stroker???

FirstWorldProblems

TCG Elite Member
Staff member
TCG Premium
Sep 6, 2006
70,461
80,172
Crown point, IN
Hey everyone. This winter I plan on building my engine. Im goin with forged pistons, crower stage 3s, ported and polished heads etc. etc. I'm certain of all that. The one thing I'm not sure of is what to do with the crank. I really want the VT 302 stroker kit. I know that its alot worse on gas and everything, I dont care about that. But after i build it, i really would like to have something reliable, not something that is gonna blow. Would i still be fine with the 302 stroker kit or is it too much stress on the motor?
 

Blood on Blood

rumble baby rumble
Apr 6, 2005
56,491
46,001
Prior to having the Crower cams installed, you may want to have checked out. Mikey can also provide some feedback. Here is a pretty good read....



Written by John Mihovetz (link to this read - http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...ht=crower+cams)

This is my recent experiences with Crower cams and Modular engines. I have recently been working on a couple engines that had Crower Cams and that had engine problems. The characteristics of these running engines were poor performance, low engine vacuum, very difficult to tune and constant engine misfiring erratic compression. I recognized the symptoms, but did not care to comment on the problem until I was certain rather than speculate.

What I came to find out was what I had speculated, the camshafts just simply were not correct, meaning base circle runout and lobe surface quality.

When I build any engine, one of the first things I look at regarding the cams, does not matter the manufacturer, I inspect them for base circle runout on EVERY LOBE. Not one, not some, EVERY one. In my experience (the only thing I really care about) ANY MODULAR CAMSHAFT 2V, 3V, ESPECIALLY 4V. the maximum base circle runout I will accept is .0005. That's .0005 on EVERY LOBE, not every other one. AND NOT .0006. PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. How do I know that? Because I make 2000 hp with 281 CI Modular engines and I spent the money and did the research.


The first suspect set of cams was from the "famous" Earl's Automotive car with the mystery misfire and completely ruined heads. All of the damage to the guides and seats in those heads was directly related to the cams in the engine. Yes it made good power for a while, then just deteriorated to a lump of shit by the time it came to me in a basket.

Those cams had 3 lobes total out of 32 that I felt were acceptable. Most lobes had runout of .0016-.002 and the worst ones .0028. What that means in simple terms is the valve never closes, and with a rocker ratio of 1.81 as a mulitplier the valve is actually off the seat as much as .005 . Impossible to tune, impossible to pass emissions and impossible to make good power much less maximum power.

I contacted Crower and explained who I was and the problems that I was experiencing. They basically blew me off. OK fine. I called a good friend of mine that does large business with them who I have great credibility with. He informed them that If I was not satisfied, then he'd buy his stuff elsewhere. All of a sudden they could hear me.

They looked at the cams and agreed there were issues that they were unaware of. OK fair enough. I bought another set of their cams in the mean time while waiting for replacements for these. The new set was worse than the first set because not only did it have just as much runout, several lobes actually had flat spots on the base circle.

I made them a report and sent them a letter outlining my findings, how to correct the problem and most importantly to me to send me a NEW set of cams and to NOT regrind these because the base circle would be too small and I would not have enough lifter preload. I would not be able to use them PERIOD for this set of heads. AND after all that bullshit and after their "best man" was on the job, I got the same set of cams back that I now could not use. AND THEY WERE ONLY MARGINALLY BETTER THAN BEFORE. That means 5 lobes were good now instead of 3 and runout now was .0022 V/S .0028. NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

So now clearly in emergency mode as I had dyno time scheduled the next day and NO CAMS, and did not have anything suitable in my collection. I called in a favor with the only guy that I knew that had any cams. That was Richard Holdener. I drove to his house at 10 pm and the only thing he had was a set of super small Comp Cams. I didn't want to use them, but, can't be too choosy at 10 pm. I figured that too small and right would be better than too big and junk. So I spent the rest of the night installing the cams, degreeing in the cams and assembling the rest of the motor. Arrived at the engine dyno at 7 am and proceeded with my testing.

When all of the smoke cleared this 03 Cobra made 920 hp @ 6800 rpms with 21 psi and significantly smaller cams than before. The previous combination made 700 hp at the tires with 26 psi. While it made great power, my goal was 1000 hp with the Kenne Bell 424 which I knew I could do. That's why we will be back on the dyno with this motor next week and the proper COMP CAMS for what I am doing. MM&FF covered the first part and will likely cover the second half WHEN we eclipse the 1000 hp mark.

SO back to the Crower Cams. After several sets of cams back and forth and supposedly their maximum attention to this situation, my conclusion at this time is that they cannot make cams to my expectations and are not willing enough to insure the type of quality I expect. I will say however that in the past I have inspected their Modular cams and found them to be acceptable on 2 occasions. They did offer to refund my money and do what they could to please me. They clearly felt that because there was no one complaining, there were no issues. I clearly explained that the average customer is quite possibly not as technically versed as I am and maybe just didn't know what was wrong.

SO now what I am saying is use this information anyway you like. I am not in any way bashing Crower or suggesting others to do so or possibly not buy from them. I am suggesting that if you suffer from the similar running condition as I have described above and have their cams, now you know what to look for. If you choose to purchase their cams, then simply just inspect every lobe as I have described and as long as it meets the maximum runout I have listed with no flat spots or dents, then by all means, run them because they will work. Also use a micrometer and measure the cam journals (all of them) and make sure they are right too. If you don't have the tools, then buy them, borrow them, whatever. IT IS THAT IMPORTANT.

Now as a small sidebar to all this. I run COMP CAMS in all of my own engines. I have never had any cam of theirs not meet my specs and they give me great service. I have had custom cams designed, ground and in my hands and RIGHT in 5 days.
 

VenomInside

Just Grazing
Jul 16, 2004
25,992
3,816
SAC/DEN/SFO/CHI/SEA/PDX
Blood on Blood said:
Prior to having the Crower cams installed, you may want to have checked out. Mikey can also provide some feedback. Here is a pretty good read....



Written by John Mihovetz (link to this read - http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...ht=crower+cams)

This is my recent experiences with Crower cams and Modular engines. I have recently been working on a couple engines that had Crower Cams and that had engine problems. The characteristics of these running engines were poor performance, low engine vacuum, very difficult to tune and constant engine misfiring erratic compression. I recognized the symptoms, but did not care to comment on the problem until I was certain rather than speculate.

What I came to find out was what I had speculated, the camshafts just simply were not correct, meaning base circle runout and lobe surface quality.

When I build any engine, one of the first things I look at regarding the cams, does not matter the manufacturer, I inspect them for base circle runout on EVERY LOBE. Not one, not some, EVERY one. In my experience (the only thing I really care about) ANY MODULAR CAMSHAFT 2V, 3V, ESPECIALLY 4V. the maximum base circle runout I will accept is .0005. That's .0005 on EVERY LOBE, not every other one. AND NOT .0006. PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. How do I know that? Because I make 2000 hp with 281 CI Modular engines and I spent the money and did the research.


The first suspect set of cams was from the "famous" Earl's Automotive car with the mystery misfire and completely ruined heads. All of the damage to the guides and seats in those heads was directly related to the cams in the engine. Yes it made good power for a while, then just deteriorated to a lump of shit by the time it came to me in a basket.

Those cams had 3 lobes total out of 32 that I felt were acceptable. Most lobes had runout of .0016-.002 and the worst ones .0028. What that means in simple terms is the valve never closes, and with a rocker ratio of 1.81 as a mulitplier the valve is actually off the seat as much as .005 . Impossible to tune, impossible to pass emissions and impossible to make good power much less maximum power.

I contacted Crower and explained who I was and the problems that I was experiencing. They basically blew me off. OK fine. I called a good friend of mine that does large business with them who I have great credibility with. He informed them that If I was not satisfied, then he'd buy his stuff elsewhere. All of a sudden they could hear me.

They looked at the cams and agreed there were issues that they were unaware of. OK fair enough. I bought another set of their cams in the mean time while waiting for replacements for these. The new set was worse than the first set because not only did it have just as much runout, several lobes actually had flat spots on the base circle.

I made them a report and sent them a letter outlining my findings, how to correct the problem and most importantly to me to send me a NEW set of cams and to NOT regrind these because the base circle would be too small and I would not have enough lifter preload. I would not be able to use them PERIOD for this set of heads. AND after all that bullshit and after their "best man" was on the job, I got the same set of cams back that I now could not use. AND THEY WERE ONLY MARGINALLY BETTER THAN BEFORE. That means 5 lobes were good now instead of 3 and runout now was .0022 V/S .0028. NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

So now clearly in emergency mode as I had dyno time scheduled the next day and NO CAMS, and did not have anything suitable in my collection. I called in a favor with the only guy that I knew that had any cams. That was Richard Holdener. I drove to his house at 10 pm and the only thing he had was a set of super small Comp Cams. I didn't want to use them, but, can't be too choosy at 10 pm. I figured that too small and right would be better than too big and junk. So I spent the rest of the night installing the cams, degreeing in the cams and assembling the rest of the motor. Arrived at the engine dyno at 7 am and proceeded with my testing.

When all of the smoke cleared this 03 Cobra made 920 hp @ 6800 rpms with 21 psi and significantly smaller cams than before. The previous combination made 700 hp at the tires with 26 psi. While it made great power, my goal was 1000 hp with the Kenne Bell 424 which I knew I could do. That's why we will be back on the dyno with this motor next week and the proper COMP CAMS for what I am doing. MM&FF covered the first part and will likely cover the second half WHEN we eclipse the 1000 hp mark.

SO back to the Crower Cams. After several sets of cams back and forth and supposedly their maximum attention to this situation, my conclusion at this time is that they cannot make cams to my expectations and are not willing enough to insure the type of quality I expect. I will say however that in the past I have inspected their Modular cams and found them to be acceptable on 2 occasions. They did offer to refund my money and do what they could to please me. They clearly felt that because there was no one complaining, there were no issues. I clearly explained that the average customer is quite possibly not as technically versed as I am and maybe just didn't know what was wrong.

SO now what I am saying is use this information anyway you like. I am not in any way bashing Crower or suggesting others to do so or possibly not buy from them. I am suggesting that if you suffer from the similar running condition as I have described above and have their cams, now you know what to look for. If you choose to purchase their cams, then simply just inspect every lobe as I have described and as long as it meets the maximum runout I have listed with no flat spots or dents, then by all means, run them because they will work. Also use a micrometer and measure the cam journals (all of them) and make sure they are right too. If you don't have the tools, then buy them, borrow them, whatever. IT IS THAT IMPORTANT.

Now as a small sidebar to all this. I run COMP CAMS in all of my own engines. I have never had any cam of theirs not meet my specs and they give me great service. I have had custom cams designed, ground and in my hands and RIGHT in 5 days.


+1.. If you get cams from Crower.. You better make sure everything is to spec etc. I had a NIGHTMARE with my Stage III crowers in my cobra.
 

Redman

Bad a$$ 2V
May 10, 2005
765
0
VenomInside said:
+1.. If you get cams from Crower.. You better make sure everything is to spec etc. I had a NIGHTMARE with my Stage III crowers in my cobra.

This one right?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...ategoryZ6236QQihZ019QQitemZ290034706389QQrdZ1

"THIS NEWLY REFINED MUSTANG COBRA OFFERS TRUE HORSEPOWER WITH JEOPORDIZING EVERY DAY DRIVING."

He meant to say "without jeopordizing" But I guess he made the error on purpose so when the new owner got it he couldn't bitch.
 

dun4791

gypsy is a whore!
Mar 2, 2004
4,536
4,257
What ain't no country I ever heard of
N20GT said:
Hey everyone. This winter I plan on building my engine. Im goin with forged pistons, crower stage 3s, ported and polished heads etc. etc. I'm certain of all that. The one thing I'm not sure of is what to do with the crank. I really want the VT 302 stroker kit. I know that its alot worse on gas and everything, I dont care about that. But after i build it, i really would like to have something reliable, not something that is gonna blow. Would i still be fine with the 302 stroker kit or is it too much stress on the motor?


Call Scotty at VT. Discuss what crank to use with your builder. Go tour the shop and meet the guys personally. Customer service is the best. VT checks ALL of the parts they use prior to install, so dont let internet chatter deter you from the Crower 3s.
 

dun4791

gypsy is a whore!
Mar 2, 2004
4,536
4,257
What ain't no country I ever heard of
Blood on Blood said:
Prior to having the Crower cams installed, you may want to have checked out. Mikey can also provide some feedback. Here is a pretty good read....



Written by John Mihovetz (link to this read - http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...ht=crower+cams)

This is my recent experiences with Crower cams and Modular engines. I have recently been working on a couple engines that had Crower Cams and that had engine problems. The characteristics of these running engines were poor performance, low engine vacuum, very difficult to tune and constant engine misfiring erratic compression. I recognized the symptoms, but did not care to comment on the problem until I was certain rather than speculate.

What I came to find out was what I had speculated, the camshafts just simply were not correct, meaning base circle runout and lobe surface quality.

When I build any engine, one of the first things I look at regarding the cams, does not matter the manufacturer, I inspect them for base circle runout on EVERY LOBE. Not one, not some, EVERY one. In my experience (the only thing I really care about) ANY MODULAR CAMSHAFT 2V, 3V, ESPECIALLY 4V. the maximum base circle runout I will accept is .0005. That's .0005 on EVERY LOBE, not every other one. AND NOT .0006. PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. How do I know that? Because I make 2000 hp with 281 CI Modular engines and I spent the money and did the research.


The first suspect set of cams was from the "famous" Earl's Automotive car with the mystery misfire and completely ruined heads. All of the damage to the guides and seats in those heads was directly related to the cams in the engine. Yes it made good power for a while, then just deteriorated to a lump of shit by the time it came to me in a basket.

Those cams had 3 lobes total out of 32 that I felt were acceptable. Most lobes had runout of .0016-.002 and the worst ones .0028. What that means in simple terms is the valve never closes, and with a rocker ratio of 1.81 as a mulitplier the valve is actually off the seat as much as .005 . Impossible to tune, impossible to pass emissions and impossible to make good power much less maximum power.

I contacted Crower and explained who I was and the problems that I was experiencing. They basically blew me off. OK fine. I called a good friend of mine that does large business with them who I have great credibility with. He informed them that If I was not satisfied, then he'd buy his stuff elsewhere. All of a sudden they could hear me.

They looked at the cams and agreed there were issues that they were unaware of. OK fair enough. I bought another set of their cams in the mean time while waiting for replacements for these. The new set was worse than the first set because not only did it have just as much runout, several lobes actually had flat spots on the base circle.

I made them a report and sent them a letter outlining my findings, how to correct the problem and most importantly to me to send me a NEW set of cams and to NOT regrind these because the base circle would be too small and I would not have enough lifter preload. I would not be able to use them PERIOD for this set of heads. AND after all that bullshit and after their "best man" was on the job, I got the same set of cams back that I now could not use. AND THEY WERE ONLY MARGINALLY BETTER THAN BEFORE. That means 5 lobes were good now instead of 3 and runout now was .0022 V/S .0028. NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

So now clearly in emergency mode as I had dyno time scheduled the next day and NO CAMS, and did not have anything suitable in my collection. I called in a favor with the only guy that I knew that had any cams. That was Richard Holdener. I drove to his house at 10 pm and the only thing he had was a set of super small Comp Cams. I didn't want to use them, but, can't be too choosy at 10 pm. I figured that too small and right would be better than too big and junk. So I spent the rest of the night installing the cams, degreeing in the cams and assembling the rest of the motor. Arrived at the engine dyno at 7 am and proceeded with my testing.

When all of the smoke cleared this 03 Cobra made 920 hp @ 6800 rpms with 21 psi and significantly smaller cams than before. The previous combination made 700 hp at the tires with 26 psi. While it made great power, my goal was 1000 hp with the Kenne Bell 424 which I knew I could do. That's why we will be back on the dyno with this motor next week and the proper COMP CAMS for what I am doing. MM&FF covered the first part and will likely cover the second half WHEN we eclipse the 1000 hp mark.

SO back to the Crower Cams. After several sets of cams back and forth and supposedly their maximum attention to this situation, my conclusion at this time is that they cannot make cams to my expectations and are not willing enough to insure the type of quality I expect. I will say however that in the past I have inspected their Modular cams and found them to be acceptable on 2 occasions. They did offer to refund my money and do what they could to please me. They clearly felt that because there was no one complaining, there were no issues. I clearly explained that the average customer is quite possibly not as technically versed as I am and maybe just didn't know what was wrong.

SO now what I am saying is use this information anyway you like. I am not in any way bashing Crower or suggesting others to do so or possibly not buy from them. I am suggesting that if you suffer from the similar running condition as I have described above and have their cams, now you know what to look for. If you choose to purchase their cams, then simply just inspect every lobe as I have described and as long as it meets the maximum runout I have listed with no flat spots or dents, then by all means, run them because they will work. Also use a micrometer and measure the cam journals (all of them) and make sure they are right too. If you don't have the tools, then buy them, borrow them, whatever. IT IS THAT IMPORTANT.

Now as a small sidebar to all this. I run COMP CAMS in all of my own engines. I have never had any cam of theirs not meet my specs and they give me great service. I have had custom cams designed, ground and in my hands and RIGHT in 5 days.

Problems with Comp cams were consistently overlooked by John M. in the post. Seems to me someone had an axe to grind. If you read the article in MMFF you will see that John M. blew the engine up because he didnt know how to properly burp the cooling system........

Bottom line is to check ALL parts prior to install. This was not a Crower only problem........
 

Bullitt-1469-

Regular
Jun 11, 2005
406
0
Crawlin2vGT said:
i too was looking into a stroker. if you check out modulardepot some where discussing and said to do bigbore setup over stroker. i guess the stroker doesnt really do much but 30hp give or take and i guess the big bore (which makes it a 302 also) is better to run.
A 281ci with a stroker is a 302ci with the stroke at 3.750, the big boar kit that your talking about requires bigger sleves to be used at that makes it a 324ci. Theres a big difference in them, as for hp it matters what power level your at
 
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