Methanol Injection
- Thread starter FastKatt
- Start date
If i were you I would spend your money on nitrous instead, you won't hurt the motor if you know what you're doing. The reason people think that is beyond me, yea a 200 shot will slowly eat away at your aluminum pistons and probably cost you 6 spark plugs but a 75 shot worth of nitrous with your cam/heads combo shall put that car into the low 12's all day long if not high 11's and the motor won't even miss a beat.
Meth injection is just not going to help much especially since you're running E85. I'm trying out an idea i have to spray down the lower intake where all the heat is as soon as i get my damn car back i can finally post results but until then i vote no for meth. If it doesn't work then i plug the holes and continue on, if it does then i can give advice but it requires pulling the lower intake and drilling/tapping holes. Do yourself a HUGE favor, get some spray, it's great shit.
Meth injection is just not going to help much especially since you're running E85. I'm trying out an idea i have to spray down the lower intake where all the heat is as soon as i get my damn car back i can finally post results but until then i vote no for meth. If it doesn't work then i plug the holes and continue on, if it does then i can give advice but it requires pulling the lower intake and drilling/tapping holes. Do yourself a HUGE favor, get some spray, it's great shit.
My Mods are in my sig, did you click the link?
Maybe I look like someone else? lol
I haven't cracked the block yet, stock internals still
I was messing around with an E85 tune, but it didn't give more than it cost...
Why do you think NOS>Meth?
I was looking for the lower temps, not really the HP/Explosion NOS offers
I'll be the 1st to admit I'm mostly clueless as to all the dangers & benefits from either one...
I was mostly thinking, "safe route" seeing as she's my DD
What about the cost between the 2?
Maybe I look like someone else? lol
I haven't cracked the block yet, stock internals still
I was messing around with an E85 tune, but it didn't give more than it cost...
Why do you think NOS>Meth?
I was looking for the lower temps, not really the HP/Explosion NOS offers
I'll be the 1st to admit I'm mostly clueless as to all the dangers & benefits from either one...
I was mostly thinking, "safe route" seeing as she's my DD
What about the cost between the 2?
If you are already running E-85 your gain with methanol will be neglible at best. Go with the n2o! The only reason to run methanol is to bump the timing which I have a feeling with you will be maxed if you are running E-85 as the added octane characteristics will be there. Also, the cooling from E-85 will be greater than anything methanol can do for you
Maybe I should go back to the E85 tuning...
I dropped that project about a year ago now...
I'm not using E85 right now...
Are you guys saying you can get the same gains Meth offers with an E85 tune?
If that's the case, I'll need a few good links to someone project?
50/50 mix? 75(E10)/25(E85)?
I dropped that project about a year ago now...
I'm not using E85 right now...
Are you guys saying you can get the same gains Meth offers with an E85 tune?
If that's the case, I'll need a few good links to someone project?
50/50 mix? 75(E10)/25(E85)?
I think you should go back and try E85 again cause it's advantages over 93 octane are one to none. The whole idea of meth/water cooling is to cool the air charge before it reaches the cylinders. The only way to do that is a direct port injection of the mix. This would cost wayyyy too much and not be anywhere near the gains you're expecting. I used meth last year through the blower which is the exact same thing you want to do. While it did help the car stay more consistent it was only REALLY useful when i was spraying my car because it added the extra fuel i needed to run the huge shot i was running. Spraying meth through the blower otherwise is not going to do anything.
There just isn't a proven method of using meth on a supercharged 3800 application. Once there is (highly unlikely but hey anything can happen) i'm sure people will go for it, but as an already proven method (intercoolers) being just a little more expensive with consistent results i don't expect very many people to jump on that bandwagon.
Go back to E85, get a 75 (wet) shot nitrous kit, and go have fun. BTW, Don't ever mix gas and E85 attempting to "raise" the octane level with a certain percentage of each, you're wasting your time. You'll never get the mix right and the tune will always be off. Either pick one or the other.
There just isn't a proven method of using meth on a supercharged 3800 application. Once there is (highly unlikely but hey anything can happen) i'm sure people will go for it, but as an already proven method (intercoolers) being just a little more expensive with consistent results i don't expect very many people to jump on that bandwagon.
Go back to E85, get a 75 (wet) shot nitrous kit, and go have fun. BTW, Don't ever mix gas and E85 attempting to "raise" the octane level with a certain percentage of each, you're wasting your time. You'll never get the mix right and the tune will always be off. Either pick one or the other.
So, you're running straight E85?
Maybe that's why I had such a hell of a time with the tune, when I tried it...
I was running 50/50, I had a 5gal can of 50/50 mix so I could "top off" when I was done at the pump
My numbers were always all over the place & the cost was close to running 106 from the local station...
Any problems running pure E85?
Any tips to speed up the tune?
What size FI you running?
Maybe that's why I had such a hell of a time with the tune, when I tried it...
I was running 50/50, I had a 5gal can of 50/50 mix so I could "top off" when I was done at the pump
My numbers were always all over the place & the cost was close to running 106 from the local station...
Any problems running pure E85?
Any tips to speed up the tune?
What size FI you running?
Where are you from? Thortons (sp?) always has the closest actual E85, it's like E84.3 actually if you want an exact number. Gas city always averages in the 70's, their gas is shit, pure shit.
Fastkatt, sorry i didn't reply to you, i just noticed now. I do run straight E85, and there's no problems with it besides it being a little hard to start in the winter, but i usually switch over to 93 octane in the winter anyways and put on my 3.4
I run 65# injectors with a racetronix pump/re-wire and with my new setup i have about 10% overhead on the injectors. Last year with a much more tame setup i was at about 65% duty cycle.
Here's some pics of my meth/water injection setup i designed for my car with the Gen V intake/blower.
So far it's working flawlessly, i am running a 2.8 pulley non-i/c'd with almost 10:1 compression on a gen V. If you're ever going to run a "meth" kit this is the only logical way to do it with a blower. Pre-blower does 1 thing, which is it helps fill the gaps in the rotors thus giving the car a little more boost, aside from that it does nothing. I am thinking about getting another nozzle to put pre-blower for that reason actually. It'll be a very small nozzle around 1gpm so it's just enough to fill the gaps in the rotors and dissipate after that. Post blower like my setup covers the entire intake manifold with a fine mist of 80% water 20% ethanol. I use straight 99.9% ethanol because it's easy to get and costs are low.
Either way i still vote you saving your money for a nitrous kit and switching to E85. It's not easy to do what i did ya know? It is however, easy to bolt on a nitrous kit and install bigger injectors. After that it's a simple tune away from being a monster.
/long post! No cliffs, sorry.
Fastkatt, sorry i didn't reply to you, i just noticed now. I do run straight E85, and there's no problems with it besides it being a little hard to start in the winter, but i usually switch over to 93 octane in the winter anyways and put on my 3.4
I run 65# injectors with a racetronix pump/re-wire and with my new setup i have about 10% overhead on the injectors. Last year with a much more tame setup i was at about 65% duty cycle.
Here's some pics of my meth/water injection setup i designed for my car with the Gen V intake/blower.
So far it's working flawlessly, i am running a 2.8 pulley non-i/c'd with almost 10:1 compression on a gen V. If you're ever going to run a "meth" kit this is the only logical way to do it with a blower. Pre-blower does 1 thing, which is it helps fill the gaps in the rotors thus giving the car a little more boost, aside from that it does nothing. I am thinking about getting another nozzle to put pre-blower for that reason actually. It'll be a very small nozzle around 1gpm so it's just enough to fill the gaps in the rotors and dissipate after that. Post blower like my setup covers the entire intake manifold with a fine mist of 80% water 20% ethanol. I use straight 99.9% ethanol because it's easy to get and costs are low.
Either way i still vote you saving your money for a nitrous kit and switching to E85. It's not easy to do what i did ya know? It is however, easy to bolt on a nitrous kit and install bigger injectors. After that it's a simple tune away from being a monster.
/long post! No cliffs, sorry.
Help me understand what you all tuning in E85 have to do to do it. Its my understanding that the high concentration of alcohol in the fuel will deteriorate much of a stock fuel system; fuel lines, injectors, o-rings, etc. I heard that the only way to run E85 is to replace the fuel system components with stainless steel or other alcohol compatible material pieces.
Further, when you tune this fuel in, how do you compensate for such a varied consistency of E85 throughout the year and geographic locations; what may have 85% alcohol in one place, another could have only 75%. The same inconsistencies can and do occure between shipments to the same gas station.
I'm not trying to "poo-poo" E85 tuning, I'm wondering if and what solutions you all have came up with to deal with the above issues.
As for meth-injection; for my combination, Hell yea! It's going on over the Winter. I'm going to run a kit out of Kurgan Motorsports and dial it in when I bring the truck over to Bob's new shop in the Spring after the cam install.
Further, when you tune this fuel in, how do you compensate for such a varied consistency of E85 throughout the year and geographic locations; what may have 85% alcohol in one place, another could have only 75%. The same inconsistencies can and do occure between shipments to the same gas station.
I'm not trying to "poo-poo" E85 tuning, I'm wondering if and what solutions you all have came up with to deal with the above issues.
As for meth-injection; for my combination, Hell yea! It's going on over the Winter. I'm going to run a kit out of Kurgan Motorsports and dial it in when I bring the truck over to Bob's new shop in the Spring after the cam install.
From my experience om my 2003 SSEi:
1. Started with a good E10/Gas tune back in July.
2. Installed a fuel pump rewire on the stock pump.
2. Installed 55# injectors from 42.5#ers
3. Scaled the IFR table up by 32%
4. Did a couple MAF tunes to dial in the LTFTs (they were somewhat close -3 to +7 or so)
5. Ran 100% E85 for about 1000 miles (about 5 tanks LOL) - Went to the same two gas stations to fill up. (Marathon stations - one in IL and one in WI)
6. Changed the fuel filter this week. (Running E85 supposedly cleans the hell out of your fuel system.)
As for changing out fuel system components, my 2003 SSEi already has ethanol-compatible components from the factory (as I believe most cars from 1995 and on do). Installing aftermarket injectors takes care of the o-ring issue since most of them come with Viton rings.
As for changing of the blend of winter/spring/summer/fall blends, the PCM can compensate for the changes in alchohol content. If you scan and tune regularly, changes in your trims will give you indications of the different seasonal blends. You can tune accordingly.
Once we are done with track day next weekend, I'll be switching back to regular gas or the winter time. The only challenge I have had with E85 at the moment is the hard starts when the car is cold.
HTH
1. Started with a good E10/Gas tune back in July.
2. Installed a fuel pump rewire on the stock pump.
2. Installed 55# injectors from 42.5#ers
3. Scaled the IFR table up by 32%
4. Did a couple MAF tunes to dial in the LTFTs (they were somewhat close -3 to +7 or so)
5. Ran 100% E85 for about 1000 miles (about 5 tanks LOL) - Went to the same two gas stations to fill up. (Marathon stations - one in IL and one in WI)
6. Changed the fuel filter this week. (Running E85 supposedly cleans the hell out of your fuel system.)
As for changing out fuel system components, my 2003 SSEi already has ethanol-compatible components from the factory (as I believe most cars from 1995 and on do). Installing aftermarket injectors takes care of the o-ring issue since most of them come with Viton rings.
As for changing of the blend of winter/spring/summer/fall blends, the PCM can compensate for the changes in alchohol content. If you scan and tune regularly, changes in your trims will give you indications of the different seasonal blends. You can tune accordingly.
Once we are done with track day next weekend, I'll be switching back to regular gas or the winter time. The only challenge I have had with E85 at the moment is the hard starts when the car is cold.
HTH
Also, my previous dyno last year on E10 93 octane netted me 313whp. Switching to E85 this year with additional boost and timing provided by E85 netted me this:
http://www.thechicagogarage.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37966
Some helpful stuff:
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=4370007
Where to get it:
http://www.e85refueling.com/locatio...is&PHPSESSID=a2ef121807bfe80ae9cc7738f9bf00a2
http://www.thechicagogarage.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37966
Some helpful stuff:
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=4370007
Where to get it:
http://www.e85refueling.com/locatio...is&PHPSESSID=a2ef121807bfe80ae9cc7738f9bf00a2
The only cars from the factory that have E85 compatible systems are only those stating it for a specific vehicle. There really aren't that many models that are E85 rated. My 2007 Corolla isn't E85 compatible and neither is my Sister's 2004 Grand Am GT. Further, not all injectors are compatible either and E85 will disintegrate standard rubber fuel hose and lines, even the standard metal lines.
I hear of people doing conversions and tunes but I seldom hear that those points are addressed. I guess I wonder more on how long it would be before stock system components start to fail. Perhaps I just hear and read too much contradicting information.
I hear of people doing conversions and tunes but I seldom hear that those points are addressed. I guess I wonder more on how long it would be before stock system components start to fail. Perhaps I just hear and read too much contradicting information.
I hear what you are saying. E10 (gas with up to 10% ethanol) is now sold all year long around here. It's has been around for at least 10 years so I'm assuming there is SOME level compatibility in newer cars to accomodate ehtanol in gasoline.
In terms of definitive answers, I don't have any.
I figure it this way, if I do have to replace the fuel system, it is essentially fuel lines and maybe the gas tank. On our 3800s, that is pretty straightforward.
I think this point is rather confusing for a lot of people. Most people think that ethonol has the same type of corrosive effects as methanol. It doesn't.
New cars not specified for e85 can still run it as long as the tune is corrected, and fuel delivery is addressed. e85 spec'd cars are just plug and play, the tank has a sensor that detects the electrical resistance of the fuel to determine the tune/fueling.
Will e 85 eat through a rubber hose? Most likely...but so will gasoline! What new cars have rubber hoses anyway?
this is my guess, too many people with too many concerns that really don't effect people like tommy and myself. We can give 2 shits about the car starting in the winter, we don't care what fuel system accessories need to be replaced, we just wait to find out what happens to what. Our cars are equally factory equipped with a fuel system capable of handling large amounts of ethanol, but neither of us can tell you what the E85 will do in the long run. If you're changing over to E85 for anything other than part year performance applications then you're honestly wasting your time and money. Unless you love the smell of alcohol in the morning more than you like spending a bunch of money you need..
I'm sure we went over this but don't waste your time with meth injection fastkatt, unless it's post blower and a reliable setup it's a waste. I used to be one of the newbs that though spraying it through the blower was helping, been there, tested that, didn't/doesn't work. It must be a fine even mist into the intake manifold post blower with a somewhat close calculation of how much you're putting in which i used my maf readings for. I ended up under calculating by quite a bit though, thank god for an adjustable pressure pump.
So, most everybody thinks an E85 tune is the bast bet...
I just picked up my Mom's old 4x4 F150 from Joliet,
So, it looks like I can tune the car for "no winter", that helps!
We'll see what I have to throw at the truck to get it on the road.
Puts the tune off till next year, most likely
Now I need to find all the E85 threads...
I just picked up my Mom's old 4x4 F150 from Joliet,
So, it looks like I can tune the car for "no winter", that helps!
We'll see what I have to throw at the truck to get it on the road.
Puts the tune off till next year, most likely
Now I need to find all the E85 threads...
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