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Old 01-04-2019, 12:22 PM   #501
 
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I agree. I was just saying the X is still heavier as the argument was made further up the Teslaís are destroying the roads due to weight.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:25 PM   #502
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One thing to consider - ICE pays heavy taxes on gasoline and the politicians want to add an additional tax to that as well.

ICE also doesn't get cash back from buying an EV (We get MFG rebates or discounts off of MSRP), but, buying certain ICE cars, we pay a pricey gas guzzler tax too (IIRC I paid over $1,500 for my previous Mustang) as well as my Durango.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:12 PM   #503
 
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If we're talking about taxes paid into the gas fund, we'd have to subsidize large SUV owners. My Escalade pays tons of fuel tax compared the Cruze as it gets half the economy. The debate is silly. No one here seems capable if clearly defining facts and using math to keep the discussion accurate.

The average diver uses 500 gallons per year (google). The gas tax in Illinois is .19/gal. This amounts to $95 per year collected per car in gas tax. That's the number that matters and puts in context the discussion.

Facts:
1. We do not tax high mpg vehicles extra. An eco gas vehicle is probably paying $50/year.
2. This discussion has been framed in Tesla vehicles being too expensive. That's true, they currently cost more meaning they pay more for registration and sales tax. 10 years gas tax is $950 or 15k in in vehicle purchase price. Average vehicle cost is 34k in the US. Average Tesla cost is way more than 49k (15+34)
3. There are dozens of ways in which EVs cost society less than ICE vehicles. Another is fires. U.S. fire departments respond to 150,000 vehicle fires per yer. An average of 209 civilian deaths, 764 civilian injuries, and $536 million in direct property damage. Teslas catch fire at a drastically lower rate than ICE vehicles. In fact this figure alone would save the US 400M+ annually (if we all drove Teslas) equal to the gas tax paid by 420,000 ICE cars.

In fact a narrow study by M.J. Bradley & Associates indicates billions in savings from EV adoption with nearly half going to society as a whole and the other half directly to EV owners.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:17 PM   #504
 
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Another reason the 'debate' is one of pure stupidity:

According to the Illinois Economic Policy Institute, $6.8 billion in transportation funds was diverted by Illinois' legislature between FY02 to FY15 in order to plug budget deficits in non-transportation related areas.

The 'gas taxes' don't even get used for roads. They are just taxes, pure and simple. Meaning the roads don't require maintaining at the value people pretend them needed to be.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:18 PM   #505
 
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You have to keep in mind the amount of Teslaís on the road vs other cars is small.

Iím a Tesla owner but just trying to keep things honest. There will be less Tesla incidents because there are way less of us on the road.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:38 PM   #506
 
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Originally Posted by lastls1 View Post
You have to keep in mind the amount of Teslaís on the road vs other cars is small.

Iím a Tesla owner but just trying to keep things honest. There will be less Tesla incidents because there are way less of us on the road.
According to zoomer, this is an issue that's going to pop up quickly as there's going to be an onslaught of EV's on the roads.

Being serious, this is a problem that will need to be solved.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:45 PM   #507
 
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The 'gas taxes' don't even get used for roads. They are just taxes, pure and simple. Meaning the roads don't require maintaining at the value people pretend them needed to be.
Do you live in Illinois? Our roads are just as shitty as the politicians in Springfield.

FACT: The national infrastructure is in need of funding.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/09/engi...ing-grade.html

https://www.sj-r.com/news/20180328/r...llion-per-year
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Old 01-04-2019, 05:09 PM   #508
 
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https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/04/...in-california
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Old 01-04-2019, 05:32 PM   #509
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This might be the only reason I would buy an older car. I fear how they are going to track yearly mileage on vehicles.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:56 PM   #510
 
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Originally Posted by lastls1 View Post
You have to keep in mind the amount of Tesla’s on the road vs other cars is small.

I’m a Tesla owner but just trying to keep things honest. There will be less Tesla incidents because there are way less of us on the road.


Let me explain how this works.
It has nothing to do with how many Tesla's are on the road. Stats don't work that way. They don't look at total fires and say 'how many of them are teslas'. They look at total miles driven. So to illustrate this in a fashion that I hope people can understand. For every 1 billion miles that Teslas drive, 5 of them catch on fire. For every 1 billion miles than ICE vehilces drive 55 of them catch fire. This figure doesn't change based on how many Teslas are on the road.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/us/fl...rch/index.html

This tragedy would not exist in an electric world. Happened just today and happens every day.
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Old 01-05-2019, 02:52 PM   #511
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I didn't think the Tesla X weighed much more than many other 3 row vehicles. Well, at least the American ones that still use mostly steel in the body. The Acura is pretty light weight.

Edit: Wikipedia says 5,072 (60D) to 5,531 (P100D)
batteries are heavy. this makes it even more beneficial for an EV to seek weight reduction via other technologies and materials, ie. most of the i3 and i8 is structurally carbon fiber, although i read they were not going to continue that on their next model. i thought a bunch of research went into just tesla's wheels as well. i wonder how positively/negatively you can effect the car by swapping to different ones.
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Old 01-05-2019, 02:54 PM   #512
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This might be the only reason I would buy an older car. I fear how they are going to track yearly mileage on vehicles.
fyi if someone is truly interested in being green - simply driving an older car, maintaining it, and driving it into the ground is one of the greenest options available.
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Old 01-05-2019, 03:30 PM   #513
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1. Cars in general cause minimal road wear. http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf
According to this study a semi causes 10,000 times the road wear that a car does. By your logic we should tax people for walking on sidewalks or riding bikes.
it's not my logic, it's the government logic. they are collecting money via gas taxes from me for road use. i'm not saying that is right or wrong. i am saying you and i are using the road similarly, if they are going to tax me for it, they should sure as fuck tax you for it. i'll agree with you that your ev registration should disappear if you agree with me that my gas tax should disappear.

Quote:
2. EVs do indeed cause less than ICE because of the petroleum byproducts left on the road. You should be embarrassed for saying something so ignorant. Google earth a busy intersection, any one you wish. You'll see that on the stopping side of the road, there is oil in the center of the lanes.
i can agree on that point, but does that even factor in to them redoing the road? point is still the same, if there's a road use fee then we both should be paying for it, not just one of us.

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3. Who pays for accidents from ICE vehicles?

Where is the tax for this? It's common and you'd know if you took the time to google your points.
i don't know how you are defining "common" here or how common this particular problem is along the many other surface conditions that could lead to an accident.

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4. Pollution from cars drives up healthcare costs. According to the University of Oxford, healthcare costs from vehicle pollution are in the billions annually. Who pays for that? Where is the tax?

-If you want to intellectually go toe to toe with me and debate facts and figures, you're going to lose. Every time.
i don't disagree but that's rather far and away from a road use tax is it not? we are talking about your EV registration tax being unfair and you have to go out to roadways causing more pollution and public health problems as a justification for... you not having to pay for it?

what about all the cobalt that went into your batteries sourced from the congo by people in complete shit conditions? did you pay fairly for both their labor as well as their health costs? you are having to do an awful lot of mental gymnastics to conclude that only ICE commuters should pay for any type of road use tax which you should get to escape. let's not forgot this amount here pales in comparison to the direct many thousands of dollars that taxpayers subsidized for your luxury car purchase.
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Old 01-05-2019, 05:37 PM   #514
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fyi if someone is truly interested in being green - simply driving an older car, maintaining it, and driving it into the ground is one of the greenest options available.
OMG, I had to read this twice because I couldn't believe it the first time.
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:55 AM   #515
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OMG, I had to read this twice because I couldn't believe it the first time.
wait wwhy?
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TCG: We pull vanity fair models in our F150ís because Teslaís are unsafe.
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Old 01-07-2019, 06:47 PM   #516
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I think ICE will keep getting better because it will have to. ICE is better than EV in cold climates IMO. Depends on what you measure by but range for sure. At least until chemistry changes or solid state comes of age.
BUT ZOMG TECHNOLOGY DOESNT EFFECT BATTERYS DERRRRRRRRRR!!!

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55 is a nightmare now due to the increased semi traffic and all the warehouses popping up. The road needs major widening and repair because of this. They should be fronting 80 percent of the bill for it.

Thatís where the real money lies
You mean the Obama expressway? Obama is ruining the commute? Thanks Obama.

But yeah, I took the family to a show in Champagne and took 55 down, and my god how I was surprised to see how much it was built up near the edge of the highway and how busy it was even almost an hour south.

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170 lbs is not a big difference. If you want to get super technical calculate the weight of gas and I bet they are really close.
Whats even funnier is IIRC the posted weight is dry weight. You have to then add the weight of all the fluids. Including gas. The Explorer has an 18.6? gallon tank and multiply that by 6 pounds per gallon, and you are at 111 pounds. Plus all your other fluids. So the weight isnt that much different.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:57 AM   #517
 
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https://electrek.co/2019/01/15/gm-mo...-all-electric

Even GM knows the present/future is not in hybrids.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:12 PM   #518
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zoomer is this you?

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Old 01-16-2019, 12:17 PM   #519
 
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Zoomer's English is better.
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deezuz christ out
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Old 01-16-2019, 05:19 PM   #520
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https://electrek.co/2019/01/15/gm-mo...-all-electric

Even GM knows the present/future is not in hybrids.
And Ford too.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...ck/2595515002
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