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Old 01-03-2019, 12:45 PM   #476
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I think ICE will keep getting better because it will have to. ICE is better than EV in cold climates IMO. Depends on what you measure by but range for sure. At least until chemistry changes or solid state comes of age.

Sick, what wealthy people are buying Bolts and Volts? LOL. They have sold nearly as many of those as Telsa has. Plus the model 3 is half of the Tesla sales roughly. The wealthy people are buying S and X and have been taxed far more than the subsidies make up for. Get the facts straight. MI charges 20% extra for registration each year if you have an electric. I pay nearly 2 grand a year.
even pre-tesla battery subsidies skewed towards wealthier people but teslas are an extreme. one of the first people i knew who got one was a long standing accenture partner. i find it completely absurd.

i don't know what point you are making with S or X or what, the subsidies are a tax break for them plain and simple. we aren't even paying our bills without debt, it hardly seems right to give tax breaks to the wealthiest slices of people buying their luxury cars.

i presume the extra cost for registration has to do with capturing road use tax normally imputed through gas tax. i would hardly claim that to be 'unfair'
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Old 01-03-2019, 01:56 PM   #477
 
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I don't think US trends will follow global electric strategies. I also struggle with separating hype (as automakers try to capture Tesla's buzz and cool-factor) from actual electric sales and market share. Overall electric sales still only make up less than one percent, which hasn't been growing very aggressively, and some analysts say there hasn't been growth to support claims that automakers' lineups will have significant electric presence in 10 years
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Personally I have zero faith in Electric vehicles because quite frankly nothing I've ever owned with a battery lasted very long.
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Until Tesla can product a car for under 50K, capable of 250+ miles of range, 0-60 in under 4 seconds and not be a base model, these cars won't interest me....


No need for a 10 page reply. This is just to give you a bit of perspective as "one of those members that doesn't kneel before Tesla or is brand-loyal".

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yes, there's more tco to factor in, but that is a significant amount to make up and initial price matters as well. on top of that is this the same car qualitatively - ignoring cali weather, is it going to warm me up in the winter and as well? how many miles will i get out of my 30 minute fast charge then? what's the interior like and how does it drive? another big question: is chevy actually selling these at a profit?


i don't discount that technology progresses nor that more money will help. what i am trying to stress is that after years of talking about this on here, you *still* liken the progress to transistor tech like phones and tvs and such. i get hung up on this because i have stated it before, yet 99% of people treat EVs as if they transistor tech and that is a reasonable analogy to make and reasonable growth to expect.



i don't know if those are conservative numbers or not - even if they are hit, what i'm skeptical about are the numbers missing above though, whether this car is price competitive for me to purchase vs ice or hybrid peers and whether it's sold at a profit so that a manufacturer actually wants to present them to me and everybody else to buy.


i'll take a bet on EV being 30% of US sales in 5 years!


clearly they benefit from a non-trivial amount of favoritism when we have large federal taxpayer subsidies and when we have compliance cars being built to knowingly sell at a loss. tesla showed it could be done upmarket - but that is also the easiest place to succeed. it was a smart strategy. it's no guarantee of success downmarket though.

i'm with jason on this one, most people are monthly payment consumers.
Quotes for reference. There was another saying Tesla Semi is 10 years out
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:00 PM   #478
 
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i presume the extra cost for registration has to do with capturing road use tax normally imputed through gas tax. i would hardly claim that to be 'unfair'
The military is used to protect oil production in foreign lands. That oil is then converted to fuel without paying for the military which is 50% of our federal spend. I would hardly call THAT fair.

There are numerous groups that have done break downs of subsidies and taxes as they relate to EV vs. ICE. It's ridiculous how bad ICE vehicles are compared.

To you specifically EVs do not cause road deterioration and the electric is taxed. Even to your point alone EVs are unfairly taxed.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:40 PM   #479
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Quotes for reference. There was another saying Tesla Semi is 10 years out
Not sure why I was quoted regarding the Tesla Truck comment being 10+ years out.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:27 PM   #480
 
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Just here to say Tesla is the best and Mike K is the bomb diggity.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:34 PM   #481
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The military is used to protect oil production in foreign lands. That oil is then converted to fuel without paying for the military which is 50% of our federal spend. I would hardly call THAT fair.
the military is in all sorts of strategic places where no oil is being protected either. the US also produces a lot of its own oil, and we import it from places we don't have active military around too (canada mexico even venezuela). and oil goes into plenty of things besides gasoline for commuters. would the price really be higher sans supposed military expenditures to protect it? it is a core part of many economies, certainly so those that do not allow markets to flourish but instead have sovereign oil companies that dig it up like tax revenue from the ground. would the price even really be that much higher? or just less stable?

this is a lot of grey math and far and away from just directly subsidizing batteries for anyone, let alone people who need that subsidy the least., high income earners buying luxury cars.


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There are numerous groups that have done break downs of subsidies and taxes as they relate to EV vs. ICE. It's ridiculous how bad ICE vehicles are compared.

To you specifically EVs do not cause road deterioration and the electric is taxed. Even to your point alone EVs are unfairly taxed.
it doesn't cause it any more or less than an ICE vehicle. nonetheless, taxes for road use are captured via gasoline in roughly a "they used this many miles" kind of way. since you are avoiding them with the EV but still using roads, it is not really a surprise nor an unfair expectation if the government tries to go after you a different way.
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Old 01-04-2019, 09:37 AM   #482
 
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Not sure why I was quoted regarding the Tesla Truck comment being 10+ years out.
Not you. Another person.

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Tesla has about 10 years before they will enter the semi market.

The Cummins semi is the one to watch not Tesla.


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it doesn't cause it any more or less than an ICE vehicle. nonetheless, taxes for road use are captured via gasoline in roughly a "they used this many miles" kind of way. since you are avoiding them with the EV but still using roads, it is not really a surprise nor an unfair expectation if the government tries to go after you a different way.
1. Cars in general cause minimal road wear. http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf
According to this study a semi causes 10,000 times the road wear that a car does. By your logic we should tax people for walking on sidewalks or riding bikes.

2. EVs do indeed cause less than ICE because of the petroleum byproducts left on the road. You should be embarrassed for saying something so ignorant. Google earth a busy intersection, any one you wish. You'll see that on the stopping side of the road, there is oil in the center of the lanes.

3. Who pays for accidents from ICE vehicles?

Where is the tax for this? It's common and you'd know if you took the time to google your points.

4. Pollution from cars drives up healthcare costs. According to the University of Oxford, healthcare costs from vehicle pollution are in the billions annually. Who pays for that? Where is the tax?

-If you want to intellectually go toe to toe with me and debate facts and figures, you're going to lose. Every time.
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Old 01-04-2019, 09:38 AM   #483
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TCG: We pull vanity fair models in our F150ís because Teslaís are unsafe.
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Old 01-04-2019, 09:45 AM   #484
 
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Mike said that the ICE is on life support and my viewpoint differs in that timeline. I think the ICE has 20-30 years globally before EV sales become the majority.
Lest we forget where this thread and debate started from. People have a habit of changing their argument as time goes on, even forgetting what they originally claimed.
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:23 AM   #485
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Not you. Another person.







1. Cars in general cause minimal road wear. http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf
According to this study a semi causes 10,000 times the road wear that a car does. By your logic we should tax people for walking on sidewalks or riding bikes.

2. EVs do indeed cause less than ICE because of the petroleum byproducts left on the road. You should be embarrassed for saying something so ignorant. Google earth a busy intersection, any one you wish. You'll see that on the stopping side of the road, there is oil in the center of the lanes.

3. Who pays for accidents from ICE vehicles?

Where is the tax for this? It's common and you'd know if you took the time to google your points.

4. Pollution from cars drives up healthcare costs. According to the University of Oxford, healthcare costs from vehicle pollution are in the billions annually. Who pays for that? Where is the tax?

-If you want to intellectually go toe to toe with me and debate facts and figures, you're going to lose. Every time.
Re-read your original quoting post.

You did quote me where I stated "Non-Base model car, 0-60 in under 4 seconds, 250+ miles of range, all for under 50K"

Just pointing that out. I understand if it was a mistake for quoting me and you meant someone else.
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:24 AM   #486
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Tesla's cause more wear and tear than my Durango and/or Volt.

The sheer torque of how hard they accelerate rips the asphalt up like crazy.

Cwutididthar?
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:33 AM   #487
 
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Lest we forget where this thread and debate started from. People have a habit of changing their argument as time goes on, even forgetting what they originally claimed.
Again, no one in this thread is refuting that EV's are growing quickly. In fact, many folks in here are in agreement of that point. The disagreement is from your far left field comments on how quickly EV's are going to displace internal combustion vehicle.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:43 AM   #488
 
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it doesn't cause it any more or less than an ICE vehicle. nonetheless, taxes for road use are captured via gasoline in roughly a "they used this many miles" kind of way. since you are avoiding them with the EV but still using roads, it is not really a surprise nor an unfair expectation if the government tries to go after you a different way.
This is something that I mentioned in a previous thread. The "Highway Trust Fund" is already being stretched thin as the gasoline tax hasn't be raised and cars are more efficient, so less tax revenue is going. On top of that, there's State taxes added to gasoline. These taxes support the infrastructure that cars and trucks on.

EV's do not pay into this and it's essentially freeloading off the backs of cars and trucks that pay gas and diesel taxes. There's a number of "fixes", which could be increased registration fees or charging by the mile through technology.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:51 AM   #489
 
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Tesla's cause more wear and tear than my Durango and/or Volt.

The sheer torque of how hard they accelerate rips the asphalt up like crazy.

Cwutididthar?
Tesla Model X's cause more wear on the roads than my wife's MDX due to weight.

Vehicle weight, weather (freezing and thawing), and traffic are significant causes of roadway degradation in the Midwest.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:58 AM   #490
 
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Default 1. I had no idea Teslas weighed so much 2. Here is one going 10.4

You gotta go after semis first before any EVs in my opinion. 55 is a nightmare now due to the increased semi traffic and all the warehouses popping up. The road needs major widening and repair because of this. They should be fronting 80 percent of the bill for it.

Thatís where the real money lies
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:59 AM   #491
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eighty percent of the bill
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:03 PM   #492
 
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eighty percent of the bill


Well for the widening part. All of those new warehouses that are filling up with semi traffic are the reason the bridge needs to be redone and the road widened.

Ok how about 60 percent of the bill?
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:04 PM   #493
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Well for the widening part. All of those new warehouses that are filling up with semi traffic are the reason the bridge needs to be redone and the road widened.

Ok how about 60 percent of the bill?
think bigger picture dude.


"hey massive wearhouses bringing jobs and money to the area, we're going to need more money from you!!!!1!!!! right now!"

wanna see why businesses leave IL? you're planning it.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:07 PM   #494
 
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Hell everyone wants to leave illinois. I think itís more to due with corruption and total mismanagement of nearly everything.

If the money was being sent to the proper places instead of peoples pockets it would be a different story.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:09 PM   #495
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:11 PM   #496
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I didn't think the Tesla X weighed much more than many other 3 row vehicles. Well, at least the American ones that still use mostly steel in the body. The Acura is pretty light weight.

Edit: Wikipedia says 5,072 (60D) to 5,531 (P100D)
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:13 PM   #497
 
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Default 1. I had no idea Teslas weighed so much 2. Here is one going 10.4

Some are pretty close in weight but the Tesla is a heavy beast. The new Ford Explorer can touch 4900 lbs but thatís still lighter than the X
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:18 PM   #498
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170 lbs is not a big difference. If you want to get super technical calculate the weight of gas and I bet they are really close.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:18 PM   #499
 
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You gotta go after semis first before any EVs in my opinion. 55 is a nightmare now due to the increased semi traffic and all the warehouses popping up. The road needs major widening and repair because of this. They should be fronting 80 percent of the bill for it.

Thatís where the real money lies
It's kind of a delicate balance though as the costs will ultimately be passed onto the consumer.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:21 PM   #500
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170 lbs is not a big difference. If you want to get super technical calculate the weight of gas and I bet they are really close.
seriously.

when the difference between two vehicles, is an average person, or a full tank of gas between them... negligible as fuck.
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