3800 timing commander gauge...
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You can set the values in your PT up so that the gauge shows actual EXTRA commanded timing. I have all of my timing tables set to stock, and then use my timing commander to add and/or subtract timing depending on a lot of variables.
If you have a PT, I can send you the table that I came up with for my timing commander - just LMK.
Why do you say that? Do you have experience with this, or are you simply speculating from heresay?
I use a Happy Knob and an AFC to tune....and I think I'm doing ok with it
I'll never understand why so many people think the AFC/HK combo is inferior. Considering the level of expertise and experience of most PowrTuner owners, it is my opinion that the AFC is superior. PowrTuner is only as good as the user, and most users don't know how to get the most out of it.
MT
Most users jump in head first without reading up on changes and their effect. As for the AFC and happy knob being a better tuning option... it's not even comparable. I would never tune in a car by "tricking" a MAF table. I still think the AFCs are great for small, on-the-fly adjustments but not for tuning a car.
I see what you are saying about it working, however it isn't the best way to do it. I mean I used just an ICCU on my car when I was running 12.0s, which is basically just an AFC and timing knob in one. For things like programming in a different MAF it is somewhat difficult with just the ICCU. For things like that it is best to have them programmed directly in the PCM. I had my ICCU scaled so high it was ridiculous and I finally had to put some of the things hard coded into the PCM. I was trying to tune for the 57lb injectors, SLP MAF, LTFT for the cam, as well as regular daily tweaks and it was just too much and when you try to adjust for that many things it is no longer accurate.
My "tricked" car was the 17th fastest at one point, but that doesn't mean it is the best way to do it.
My "tricked" car was the 17th fastest at one point, but that doesn't mean it is the best way to do it.
What reaction were you hoping to elicit by saying that Mat? I was wondering if you suddenly had a problem with me or if you just had a problem with everyone... Your "superior than thou" posts answer that question for me however.
I added my opinion to the post and it's just that. There is no need for a poor attempt at getting personal. For what it's worth, there are NO WBS sponsored cars. The only WBS cars are the cars that Steve and I own and quite frankly, I'm too busy with business to drop a motor in my car right now and Steve is down for obvious reasons.
Originally posted by FastGS88+Apr 17 2006, 10:42 AM-->
Why do you say that? Do you have experience with this, or are you simply speculating from heresay?
I use a Happy Knob and an AFC to tune....and I think I'm doing ok with it
I'll never understand why so many people think the AFC/HK combo is inferior. Considering the level of expertise and experience of most PowrTuner owners, it is my opinion that the AFC is superior. PowrTuner is only as good as the user, and most users don't know how to get the most out of it.
MT
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This is a ridiculous position to hold.
Since the user doesn't know what they are doing then the AFC/HK combo is better than a powrtuner ? Really ?
The bottom line is *IF* the user doesn't know what they are doing, its not going to matter whether they are using an AFC/HK combo vs a PT... They don't know what they are doing, period.
I"m not going to argue which is the 'best' alternative as everyone has their own needs, price limitations, etc, etc; however, the logic you are presenting is anything but valid. If you wish to imply that it might be cheaper to use an AFC/HK versus a PT, then, you might have a point if all you want is fuel adjustment, etc, etc.
However, realie you need to flash the PCM to activate happy knob support, so you're also needing some additional help there. IF someone does it to your pcm for free, then all you're out of pocket is for an AFC, and then yes, its cheaper. Of course you do not have any other capability for tuning / editing the pcm or scanning. But that is a debate for another thread I guess.
I personally keep around a modified version of an ICCU that is modified to be handled and self contained. Its great for quick tuning adjustments. There is a definite value to happy knob / AFC for tuning, but lets not imply that its a better 'solution' because you believe people don't know what thye are doing .....
yes i have tuned with both its a hassle. if your car is lean form the factory after modding. the afc made me have high ass pulse widths. and the afc removes timing after a point(zzp denies it,we've proved it) and weather made the tune fuzzy, and it always need to get messed with if you want your LTFT to be close to zero consitantly
good luck
good luck
It's not you, it's just another instance of bandwagon syndrome in the 3800 community.
I don't deny the effectiveness of the tuner, but I DO challenge that it is better in the hands of most enthusiasts. When time is taken to learn how to use all its features, it IS a far superior tool, and I will eventually have one when I get a chance to be able to use it (likely this summer).
It IS my opinion however that for the average modder, the AFC is a superior tool. It is FAR more user friendly (idiot friendly if you will) and doesn't really have the learning curve of a tuner.
If you're doing a balls out cammed intercooled etc setup, yes, the tuner is a better tool, I just don't get how all of a sudden, when more people get the tuners, everyone jumps on the bandwagon that the tuner is god, and the AFC is worthless.
I can sort of liken it to your recent comments on the S&S headers. All it took was a few people to jump on the TOG is god, S&S is crap bandwagon, and all of a sudden, they're pieces of crap that are no better than PEM's!! Any reasonable person knows there is no fact or reason to substantiate such claims, just as there is little room to say that the AFC is crap and the PowrTuner is the only viable option.
TOG:S&S as PowrTuner:AFC. If you're going a long way, and have ample time to be able to play with the PCM, the tuner is for you. If you'd rather tune on the fly, have a simpler way to get almost as good a tune, spring for the AFC.
Not to be a penis, but that seems like a sort of misinformed response. Of course the AFC raised the IPW's, ANYTIME you add more fuel the IPW will increase, no matter how you go about it (save for an increase in fuel pressure). Also, unless your PCM has a timing table correlation to MAF frequency, there should be no change in the timing curve due to the AFC.
As far as fuel trims, In the past 9 months I've had 3 different intake setups, 3 different rocker setups, and several other random changes, and in that time my LTFT's have always been stable, between 0 and -3 at a cruise.
Sorry I went off, I've just been getting very frustrated by all the AFC hate lately...Mike of all people should understand since he's trying to sell what has unjustly become the "Black Sheep" of the 3800 header market
Originally posted by beyerch+Apr 17 2006, 01:29 PM-->
Why do you say that? Do you have experience with this, or are you simply speculating from heresay?
I use a Happy Knob and an AFC to tune....and I think I'm doing ok with it
I'll never understand why so many people think the AFC/HK combo is inferior. Considering the level of expertise and experience of most PowrTuner owners, it is my opinion that the AFC is superior. PowrTuner is only as good as the user, and most users don't know how to get the most out of it.
MT
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This is a ridiculous position to hold.
Since the user doesn't know what they are doing then the AFC/HK combo is better than a powrtuner ? Really ?
The bottom line is *IF* the user doesn't know what they are doing, its not going to matter whether they are using an AFC/HK combo vs a PT... They don't know what they are doing, period.
I"m not going to argue which is the 'best' alternative as everyone has their own needs, price limitations, etc, etc; however, the logic you are presenting is anything but valid. If you wish to imply that it might be cheaper to use an AFC/HK versus a PT, then, you might have a point if all you want is fuel adjustment, etc, etc.
However, realie you need to flash the PCM to activate happy knob support, so you're also needing some additional help there. IF someone does it to your pcm for free, then all you're out of pocket is for an AFC, and then yes, its cheaper. Of course you do not have any other capability for tuning / editing the pcm or scanning. But that is a debate for another thread I guess.
I personally keep around a modified version of an ICCU that is modified to be handled and self contained. Its great for quick tuning adjustments. There is a definite value to happy knob / AFC for tuning, but lets not imply that its a better 'solution' because you believe people don't know what thye are doing .....
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I don't even think I could make a case for it being cheaper. Once you factor in a scan tool, price of the AFC, and price of the HK, you're at or close to the price of the PT, only difference being the laptop which most owners already had.
While I do agree that if you're not skilled enough to use one, the other will be difficult, I still think it's much easier to master the AFC just because it serves one function. With the PT, there are often 4-5 ways you can accomplish a change in the code, and no way is "wrong," but one must be familiar with all these separate functions in order to get the most out of it.
Again, when I get the free time to master the nuances of the thing, I WILL have a tuner, and I'm sure I'll love it, it just sort of burns me to see the bum rap the AFC has gotten. Hell Easy Performance is no longer making the things just because of all the hype over the PT. Seems like the community lost a very valuable tool there.
Anywho, that's all I got. Sorry I got a little too personal, it's just sort of an issue I've got a strong opinion on
Carry on.
MT
I still stand by the fact that if you can't understand how to adjust fuel with a tuner, you're NOT going to be able to adjust fuel (properly) with an AFC.
The concept is quite similar.... Yes there are many ways to skin a cat (and many more I left out ), but the reality is that if you can comphrehend the idea behind scanning your O2, ,adjusting fueling accordingly, scan again, adjust, you could do so with either product quite easier.
An AFC simply scales the maf sensor. There is a table in all of the tu8ners that IS the maf sensor airflow table. Scale it the same and you'd get the 'same' result.
However, even I like an AFC at times because of the fact its an immediate change. As I said earlier, I'll use an AFC to get the fueling quickly 'in' and then I just make the changes to the MAF table that correspond to the changes I used on the AFC, reflash the pcm, and i'm done...
As far as AFC sales, I know nothing about how many they are or are not selling, but once again, I have to disagree with you. IF the product (tuner) did not work, there would not be any hype on the product. For the majority of the people, it does what they want and more at a good price. Please do not imply that the people that buy the product are misinformed and are simply buying it because of some type of a 'mob mentality' ....
Sorry if I sound personal too, but I take offense to people not owning the product making assumptions about the effectiveness and/or the composition of the user group of the product.
The concept is quite similar.... Yes there are many ways to skin a cat (and many more I left out
), but the reality is that if you can comphrehend the idea behind scanning your O2, ,adjusting fueling accordingly, scan again, adjust, you could do so with either product quite easier.An AFC simply scales the maf sensor. There is a table in all of the tu8ners that IS the maf sensor airflow table. Scale it the same and you'd get the 'same' result.
However, even I like an AFC at times because of the fact its an immediate change. As I said earlier, I'll use an AFC to get the fueling quickly 'in' and then I just make the changes to the MAF table that correspond to the changes I used on the AFC, reflash the pcm, and i'm done...
As far as AFC sales, I know nothing about how many they are or are not selling, but once again, I have to disagree with you. IF the product (tuner) did not work, there would not be any hype on the product. For the majority of the people, it does what they want and more at a good price. Please do not imply that the people that buy the product are misinformed and are simply buying it because of some type of a 'mob mentality' ....
Sorry if I sound personal too, but I take offense to people not owning the product making assumptions about the effectiveness and/or the composition of the user group of the product.
well im not that uniformed, i have all 3 items. its just the fueling that is added from the AFC is not exact, if you add 1 percent anywhere it addes alot more fuel then if i did small changes in the PT. ive got close to perfect o2's and my LTFT were almost dead on zero most of the time.........then 4 days later it would be off. i was never able to just leave the AFc one way with out the tune getting jumpy. And i replaced my maf and o2 sensors so i know there wasnt anything screwy with those. And the timing was not as effected by changing fuel as it was by changing the AFC
but i guess im uninformed so ill shut up
goodluck with tuning
but i guess im uninformed so ill shut up
goodluck with tuning
Originally posted by beyerch@Apr 18 2006, 09:13 AM
I still stand by the fact that if you can't understand how to adjust fuel with a tuner, you're NOT going to be able to adjust fuel (properly) with an AFC.
The concept is quite similar.... Yes there are many ways to skin a cat (and many more I left out
An AFC simply scales the maf sensor. There is a table in all of the tu8ners that IS the maf sensor airflow table. Scale it the same and you'd get the 'same' result.
However, even I like an AFC at times because of the fact its an immediate change. As I said earlier, I'll use an AFC to get the fueling quickly 'in' and then I just make the changes to the MAF table that correspond to the changes I used on the AFC, reflash the pcm, and i'm done...
As far as AFC sales, I know nothing about how many they are or are not selling, but once again, I have to disagree with you. IF the product (tuner) did not work, there would not be any hype on the product. For the majority of the people, it does what they want and more at a good price. Please do not imply that the people that buy the product are misinformed and are simply buying it because of some type of a 'mob mentality' ....
Sorry if I sound personal too, but I take offense to people not owning the product making assumptions about the effectiveness and/or the composition of the user group of the product.
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Again, Charles, I think we agree more than you know
My favorite thing about the AFC is the "tune on the fly" ability, however I do hate that it's not as concretely coded as if it were written directly to the PCM with a tuner.
I do still believe that many people are buying them out of what you described as a mob mentality, simply because there are a TON of guys out there with a 3.4 intake, exhaust, etc, who now have tuners. I WILL say however, that some people with said minimal mods are running fast as HELL compared to what a similar untuned setup would do back when I first got into modding these things. Hell, 2 guys in my local club were running mid-low 13's on mildly modded, heavily tuned 3.4 etc setups.
Like I said, overkill for most, but for anyone who has time to read up on all the tuner's abilities, it's a hell of a tool.
While I don't own one, I've sat in on many tweak sessions of others who really know their stuff, and was definitely impressed with how much could be done, but at the same time, slightly intimidated by the sheer power of the thing.
Oh well, I'm rambling again. When I have the time to make use of it, I WILL have a PowrTuner or HPT, but until I feel that I will be able to properly get familiarized with it, and have the spare time to learn the thing, I'll stick with what's working for me....As I said, that time will more than likely come this summer, especially if I can't break 11's with my current setup. It's going to be close, and I might need the extra horses the PT could squeak out of my setup.
MT
Originally posted by SINr247@Apr 18 2006, 11:10 AM
well im not that uniformed, i have all 3 items. its just the fueling that is added from the AFC is not exact, if you add 1 percent anywhere it addes alot more fuel then if i did small changes in the PT. ive got close to perfect o2's and my LTFT were almost dead on zero most of the time.........then 4 days later it would be off. i was never able to just leave the AFc one way with out the tune getting jumpy. And i replaced my maf and o2 sensors so i know there wasnt anything screwy with those. And the timing was not as effected by changing fuel as it was by changing the AFC
but i guess im uninformed so ill shut up
goodluck with tuning
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Perhaps I've just had better than average luck, or you had a crummy AFC. They don't necessarily have the best track record of reliability as far as the electronics go.
Like I said, my tune has been more or less rock solid since I added the AFC, but that could also be due to the more stable LQ4 MAF I'm using, anytime I used to tune from the stock MAF I had problems like you describe, so perhaps the outboard MAF is a source of my success with the AFC setup.
In any event, I'm glad we both found what works for our particular setups
MT
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