3800 Understandably, disappointing track results

[98 TGP TOY]

Hey guys, well I went to Cordova this past friday for T&T and was a little disappointed. My best run of the day was:

60' 2.222
MPH 99.87
1/4 14.026

Now the problems. When I scanned my car i was getting 5* of knock and misfires. This run was made with a full interior, some tools, parts, loaded bookbag and weekend luggage.

Also, I had just put this setup back together two days before the track so I had no time to tune. So I need some recommendations. I will be going back to the track in october and must have a 13. Preferably deep into 13.

So what help do I need:

I want to be as light as possible, while keeping this a daily driver? What can I get rid of that isnt visible, or the engine bay, or replace with something lighter. I am even thinking of going so far as to take the top panel thing out of my room and replacing with painted plexiglass to run the interior lights and radar det. Can I replace the front tweeters with painted plexiglass? Everything needs to go that isnt visible and needed. How much for the aluminum cradle and how hard to put in?

Next, spark plugs. What would you guys recommend for spark plug's type and gap. Right now im running 104s with a .055 gap.

Then, what can I do to keep my TB colder. My intake piping and TB both get extremely hot being next to the turbo. I already have heat wrap for the intake pipng, but need to do something about the TB. Is my only real option a sheet metal heat shield? Can I completely cover the TB is something, or paint it with something?

Lastly, any thing else to improve my time that is cheap/free. I do not have a ton of money to through into the car at this particular time, but i have time I can put into it.


So let me know guys, im starting to get serious :angry:


PS: Side note, I saw three gps buzz me on 84 around 6:30ish. Front one was yellow, I think. Who was it?

Click to read more...

 

[syP]

well... when you go to the track.. take out the back seat (back and ass cushion) take all the carpet outta the trunk.... headlight of course... spare, jack, basically gut ur trunk.. i mean cmon for 2+ hours of racing.. it is worth it. get ur 60' down a lot good sir... i was running 2.09 on RSA's. im sure you can do better. are you like "high end" power now? i mean it shouldnt be that hard to get that 60' down? unlesss im completly wrong.. dont hate me.

you can also get that replacement rear window made of plexi from INTENSE... but who knows.. GOOD LUCK

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Yea, i would have emptied the trunk but didnt have time this weekend. But next time everything will be gutted. Im looking for more permanent removals. Like the plastic behind the back seats? And where do I cut these holes, Ron??


And im largely top end right now. I can powerbrake it to 2,000 without any budging. I do need to get those down though, i didnt have much chance to play with take offs. I will try some different things out next time.

Thanx for the suggestion on the speed glass, but I think Ill just use seran wrap

Oh and I hate you

 

[ThaLord]

don't take shit out.. run what you brung..

I am sure it is purely tuning.. it means more than most people think... look at getting some tuning done..

When I goto the track.. I no longer do any track prep.. just drop the wife off.. and head to the staging lanes... this way.. you know what you will run..

John

 

[beyerch]

Screw the weight reduction.

You're the guy with the turbo right ? Clint with his monte (not stripped), is running 12.2-12.3 @ 118mph with his zzp/matt/statama turbo kit. (not this isn't a plug for their kit). My point is that the turbo setup has way more capability and wasting yoru time to dump maybe 100 lbs from your car to break 13's shoudl be the LAST thing. I would be checking out your setup to see what is not working right.

- The 60' needs soem work. I was at cordova as well and it wasn't hooking very much for anyone. However, if you awnt to bring your time down alot you really need to look here. Going from 2.22 to a 1.90 will get you a minimum of 3/10's. Get some radials or slicks. If you are concerned about yopur trans not taking it, then give up now. Get a real transmission and a torque convertor or don't bother racing it. I know thats harsh but a crappy trans will hurt you a lot. ( a good trans will hurt you too.... in the wallet....)

- Can you post your logs from the track?

- Can you post the FULL track slips. We can see if you are dogging anywhere in particular.

- When does the turbo actually start making its power ?

hope that helps

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Well here is my full slip:

R/T: .733
60" 2.222
330 6.007
1/8 9.112
MPH 78.82
1000 11.775
1/4 14.026
MPH 99.87

Ill post a log once I can download it to the computer. I wouldnt mind getting some professional tuning with your software charles...but I cant make it to chicago. You should come down to central IL sometime or cordova in 3 weeks.

And I know what times clint is running, that is why im dissapointed.

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

I like taking out the front Passenger seat for weight, with the spare and jack in the trunk. I don't bother with the back seat; it's really not that heavy. It doesn't help you that much with et, I do it to be nicer to the trans.

 

[rob]

Need more info...How much boost are you running? You have a custom IC right?

From the info you presented...

1)The knock is killing your times..and misfires. Could you have a vac leak?

2)Thermo-tech...Turbo wrap kit for your turbo and fab an aluminum heat shield around the TB.. (solve the other stuff first) This isnt the real culpret here.

3)Lots of tunning....

One thing that I discovered was A/Fs. I heard that the Scanned a/f's arent real time numbers or accurate. I herd that it was the PCMs command only and doesnt represnt the ACTUAL A/Fs. For that you would need an wide band 02. Im pretty confident that you can get it all tuned up on a dyno.

 

[Zenger]

where in central IL are you from?

I am in Decatur

 

[sweetness]

those 60' times, as already stated, are taking away at LEAST 3/10ths if not closer to 6/10ths of a second. there are your solid 13's.


Before you go and spend money on an aluminum k-member put it where it will get you the most for the least. INTERCOOLER, injectors, and a custom tune and you have a 12 second car. You are JUST about to step off into the deep end of modding. Get that wallet prepared. You are in the market for a trans, TC, diff, slicks, IC, injectors, TB, and tune..... i see $6000 there... Not to mention that a jethot coating will go a long way in helping your heat problems, and maybe a new hood to keep things cooler in there.

If you need a small intercooler for the time being i have an air-air that should fit into the fenderwell on the drivers side. It may take some tiem to get it to fit right, but you are welcome to it if you like. Also check out ebay. They have some 27" two core air-air intercoolers that will fit underneth the engine bay. They arent too expensive, and should help you out a LOT.

BC

 

[pimpiumz34]

Let me see if I can lend a hand here. I'm supposing that you are using at least a afc to tune things, and have some sort of custom PCM, if not let me know what kind of setup you have.

Can you give me an idea of what kind of O2's, IPWs, and timing you see? How many lbs of boost are you running? What injectors do you have? Logs would be good if you have them. I can at least take a look and compare them to mine. I only run 9psi on the street and bump it up to 12psi at the track, so I don't have a wild crazy boost levels yet.

Track prep is important if you want to have the fastest possible times. I know some people like to run in street trim, but I know for a fact my street trim is probably high 12's at best. I have to drive this car everyday, so I don't need things breaking when I decide to romp on it when entering the highway. What I do at the track is drop the entire exhaust, from the downpipe back. This alone will shave 50+ pounds, and make everything free flowing. I pick up a few pounds of boost with an open downpipe too. Next, and probably most important, use race gas! This will get you a few tenths, easy. Finally, get some slicks. I use QTP's, they are probably good for 1.7 60's, my pb on them is 1.90 at GLD. And I suck at launching.

Heat is a huge problem with turbo's, mine heats up quick, and doesn't cool down for hours after it's been off. I've got the pipes jet hot coated, and have a shield under the TB, but I'm thinking of wrapping the pipes in header wrap and putting a turbo blanket over the turbine section. Matt also raised up the TB a few inches, but I don't know if there is an easy way to do that with your setup. You might want to see if Matt has some ideas on that.

I use AL 104's gapped at .45, you can try tightening up your gap and see if that takes care of the misfire problem. I know Tim had issues with wide gaps when he first ran his car too.

That's all I can think of now, I'll add stuff later if I have any ideas.

 

[98 TGP TOY]

First off, thank you everyone who has responded. Its greatly appreciated.

Wieght concerns - I want to make this car as light as possible for daily and track driving. IE...get rid of everything I dont need. I understand the race it as you drive it motto, but I am trying to lighten it up for driving also, not just racing.

More info:

9.5lbs boost
NO IC
2000*F ceramic coated manifolds, y-pipe, downpipe, and turbine housing
IPW's dont go past the 16s
O2's in the .950 range
DHP v1.0 (not custom, because cant get in touch with charles)
Stock injectors (GTP)
Mini-afc for tuning

I dont have any logs loaded on my computer yet. I will load them up tonight and post them.

sweetness - i still want your wheels

Zenger - i live near peoria (morton) but am in iowa for school.

pimpiumz34 - Did you ever hit the track with street tires and the turbo? Any special launching techniques you've learned of for turbo's?


I will lower the gap tonight when i get home and post logs. Was also thinking of wrapping the pipes, but I was really hoping the ceramic coating would take care of a lot of heat problems. I do beleive heat is a major problem for my KR, because im seeing IAT of 150*-200* on logs. Also, i understand my 60's suck, but in my defense, i am on street tires that are soon to be "illegal". They are quite bald. Hopefully I will be going back to the track next time with brand new tires and lighter rims.

If you need more info let me know. I wasnt expecting low 13's for the first time out since this was a custom kit. Pimpiumz34, turbo tim, gryphon, etc all had company support on their systems with experience in tuning. It would be a little much to ask to hit their numbers off the bat Thanx again guys, Ill just call it the ILGPC Turbo Car .

 

[markymarc]

Don't you need an intercooler with any turbo setup? Or is your boost low enough that you don't? Every car that I see in enthusiast magazines with an upgraded turbo has an air 2 air intercooler.

 

[CoolGTX]

track seemed fine to me, guess it takes a good racer to make the best of what you are given?

 

[superchargedgp]

Originally posted by CoolGTX@Sep 20 2004, 08:16 PM
track seemed fine to me, guess it takes a good racer to make the best of what you are given?

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Well I dont think I ever blamed the track, so i dont quite understand that post.

I thought my boost was low enough to be safe without an IC. Maybe im wrong, or maybe I just need more tuning. But it is not required just because you have a turbo.



Ok guys, I cant seem to find any logs from the track, but I took a couple tonight. Before going out i lowered my gap to .45 and wrapped the intake piping with thermal heat shield. It looks like my O2's are higher now and my iat's havent changed a bit. Also, I am unable to even reach 9 psi, when my wastegate is set at 10 psi. Well here is a file of one of the scans, let me know if you need me to post it.

It looks like my first gear is great, but as soon as i shift, i get a jolt of knock that doesnt go away.

 

[RareGMFan]

Originally posted by markymarc+Sep 20 2004, 04:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (markymarc @ Sep 20 2004, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Don't you need an intercooler with any turbo setup?  Or is your boost low enough that you don't?  Every car that I see in enthusiast magazines with an upgraded turbo has an air 2 air intercooler.[/b]

Regardless of what your boost levels are at, an IC is a HUGE plus on any turbo set up. And preferably front mounted, if you can find a way to cram one in there somewhere. I would definitely start by getting one of those. The old TGPs came with a Blackstone IC from the factory, all be it it's kinda' small and stuck next to the radiator.

<!--QuoteBegin-pimpiumz34@Sep 20 2004, 02:09 PM

What I do at the track is drop the entire exhaust, from the downpipe back.  This alone will shave 50+ pounds, and make everything free flowing.  I pick up a few pounds of boost with an open downpipe too.  Next, and probably most important, use race gas!  This will get you a few tenths, easy.  Finally, get some slicks.  I use QTP's, they are probably good for 1.7 60's, my pb on them is 1.90 at GLD.  And I suck at launching.[/quote]

I thought you actually needed some backpressure with the turbos. It doesn't hurt the performance to have everything off like that? I was debating going 3" on the exhaust, but several TGP owners have advised against going that big.

Originally posted by pimpiumz34@Sep 20 2004, 02:09 PM
Heat is a huge problem with turbo's, mine heats up quick, and doesn't cool down for hours after it's been off.  I've got the pipes jet hot coated, and have a shield under the TB, but I'm thinking of wrapping the pipes in header wrap and putting a turbo blanket over the turbine section.

Agreed, huge problem with turbos. Even when I wash the engine, a few minutes after I have her running, it will just start bellowing out smoke off the turbo. It's funny looking at the expressions of the people next to me at red lights as streams of smoke come out the driver's side hood louver. The old TGPs also came from the factory with a blanket on the turbine side. Wrapping the pipes is a good idea, too, thought I'm not familiar with "jet hot coating". Could you explain what this does?

Originally posted by pimpiumz34@Sep 20 2004, 02:09 PM
I use AL 104's gapped at .45, you can try tightening up your gap and see if that takes care of the misfire problem.

I have mine gapped at .35 :mellow: Some TGP guys do .35, some do .40, but non of them leave it at the .45 that the n/a version of the 3.1 uses.


98 GTP TOY: Is the turbo boosting and holding the boost like it should? No drops anywhere? The wastegate is working? By the way, is the WG external on yours?

 

[pimpiumz34]

After looking at your website it looks like your IAT is after the turbo, that's why you are seeing the extreme rise in temps. From some calculations on turbo output temps it looks to me like your turbo is operating in the 60-65% efficiency range, which is acceptable. A good air-air or air-water intercooler will definately help you out.

You figure if the intercooler you get is 80% efficient, which some big air-air units can boast. Then you figure on a 60 degree night that 225 degree intake charge will become 94 degrees.
Here is the equation - [(turbo out temp - ambient air temp) x (1-%eff)] + Ambient air = Intercooler out

[(225-60) x .2]+60 = 94

That's about a 20% power gain right there!

As far as loosing boost I would look at your BOV and make sure it isn't leaking. And where is your wastegate boost signal line run to? If it's run to your turbo outlet you'll typically have a little less boost because boost is reading higher there than it does in the manifold. So your wastegate will open when that reaches 9psi, instead of your manifold reaching 9psi.

 

[Mike K]

IAT
DEGF
Intake air temp
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
132.8
134.6
136.4
138.2
140
141.8
147.2
152.6
158
167
174.2
183.2
190.4
195.8
204.8
206.6
210.2
210.2
210.2
210.2
210.2
210.2
210.2
210.2
210.2
212
212
212
215.6
215.6
215.6
219.2
219.2
219.2
219.2
224.6
224.6
224.6
224.6
224.6
224.6
219.2
215.6
215.6
215.6

h34r:

FWIW, if you can get up here to Arlington Heights, I'm ripping apart my little brother's old Saab turbo. It has a front mount on it that's larger and thicker than some I've seen on GNs. 3" inlet/ outlet. You can have it for the low low cost of free. It looks new.

Another option would be to use a stock blower housing minus the impellers and utilizing a block-off plate on the end. This way you would be able use a water/ air intercooler. This is a labor/ money intensive route to go however.

 

[98 TGP TOY]

I have an external wastegate that is connected to the upper manifold for the vac/boost line.

Getting a cheap/free IC isnt a problem. My friend has a small one he will give me for free. But I dont have the time or welding skills right now to run the piping to the IC and then back to the TB. But I will be doing an IC setup before next summer.


Do you guys think I should be having this knock with only 9 psi? If you look at my first gear, i am knock free.

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Pimpiumz34, how is your PCV system set up? Im assuming you blocked it and run a valve cover breather on the front. Do you have on on the back? Mine seems to be spitting oil out of it. I need to find a solution to this also, because its getting my engine all dirty.

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

Running the exhaust hotter inside will make you run richer, that's why you saw the change after the wrap. This may sound unconventional, so I will explain: Try going leaner; like to .890's. Richening the mix may cool combustion temps, but it will raise exhaust temps. The extra gas in the mix is only cooling down the chamber by not igniting fully. Especially on a turbo car; that raw gas will ignite, and cause detonations in the exhaust. This may or may not be causing boost fluctuations for you, butr it is causing a chain reaction in turn raising your incoming air temps. My exhaust is wrapped front to back for a reason, it really helps fuel and air delivery consistancy. I have a wrapping technique that is inexpensive, and my IR thermometer shows exhaust surface temps of 150 F throughout the length of the exhaust, and 1900F at the tailpipe. You need to keep the exhaust gasses as hot as possible with the best mix, you can the run the car leaner and pull more power out of it.
What I do is wrap the exhaust with the usual DEI or Thermo tec stuff. Then go over it again with plain fiberglass pipe wrap (either 1/4 or 1/2 thick). Use the UNfaced fiberglass. Then wrap over that with metal foil duct tape (use from Menards the Interlok? stuff; it is a large roll of foil tape, and it has blue printing on it) Now I need to stress, use this stuff...it's not made to handle that type of heat normally; I tried a few brands and it was the only one that stayed on. It will smoke after hiway drives for about a month, and it stinks like burnt plastic, but after that it will last forever, and protect the pipes underneath. It worked better than the industrial stuff I tried that's supposed to handle 1000F, and it's rated for about 200F. The only time I was able to get the glue to ignite was with a blow torch, before it was cured, after it's cured a blow torch can't even get it to smoke.

 

[pimpiumz34]

Originally posted by 98 gtp toy@Sep 21 2004, 12:43 PM
Pimpiumz34, how is your PCV system set up?  Im assuming you blocked it and run a valve cover breather on the front.  Do you have on on the back?  Mine seems to be spitting oil out of it.  I need to find a solution to this also, because its getting my engine all dirty.

The PCV is blocked off and I run a valve breather on the front. My TB also has a plug in the crankcase vent hole which prevents boost from directly entering the crankcase. I can't remember which port it is exactly on the back of the TB, but if you have a picture I should be able to point it out. Matt M has the plugs if you need one.

That's a good procedure Ron, I might have to try that. DEI also has a turbine section blanket that is for turbos. I believe it's a sheet of header wrap with reflective material on top of it. I'm going to try that out too and see how much it helps.

 

[imported_Ron Vogel]

Originally posted by pimpiumz34@Sep 21 2004, 01:29 PM
That's a good procedure Ron, I might have to try that. DEI also has a turbine section blanket that is for turbos. I believe it's a sheet of header wrap with reflective material on top of it. I'm going to try that out too and see how much it helps.

Try wrapping the DP first, it gives the most gains. I was able to drop my mini-afc 2% and still see the same O2 values. Will also get rid of any false KR from the DP. You'll notice it'll take less pedal effort to move out the car at any given speed.

 

[98 TGP TOY]

Yea, I've got that pcv blocked in the TB and at the Valve. But my valve cover breather spits. I need some type of baffle or something. Do you guys know of anything?

Also, are you running any type of oil restrictor for the turbo? I have one on now because 60+psi of oil pressure will blow by the seals in the turbo, but after a spirited drive the oil pressure drops below 20 at idle, and turbos need 21 psi minimum.

Thanx for the suggestion Ron. Ill have too try that here in the next couple weeks.

What is a safe operating range for a mini-afc. Ive heard that you should just adjust it until your car has good O2's, no matter where its set. And I've heard to not go more than +- 7%. I had it set at 97% when I made those runs. I've knocked it down th 96% today, but have yet to make a run with it. Probably will tonight when it cools off a bit.

Also, I should be getting my home-ported TB and LS1 maf on this week. . Will this added air flow help with the knock at all? I can't see it hurting it.

Lastly, I have some extra sheet metal in the garage. Will it be beneficial to make a cheap heat shield out of it? Or will it be pretty useless.

Thanx guys.