Adapter plate: take two...low cost version

Ok guys, I have been looking more and more into a cost effective, one-piece adapter plate...since price seems to be a big objection here. I felt this needed it's own thread since the other one is kind of off-topic and cluttered up. So, the question is, would this make sense to more of you at $400? Alternator relocation definitely required. May have to do some trickery to make it work, I am just beginning to seriously look at it and will be looking at other fitment/clearance issues tonight by playing around with my TVS on a stock bonneville SSEi lower intake.

We're talking about a 1-piece adapter plate you can bolt a TVS or M122 to, with countersunk holes to bolt to the stock lower intake. It will have unavoidable compromises, I'm sure (such as some of the countersunk holes disrupting the smoothness/contour of the funnel). But it should clear stock hoods. My preliminary research indicates I could offer these for $400 or so for an order of one, and I honestly believe I can get the price down around half that if we had a group buy of 10. Group buy of 5 somewhere in between. My profit margin could be very slim since apart from designing it and test fitting each one, there is really no labor at all.

Thoughts/opinions? I will be checking on possibilities/ additional clearance issues tonight.
 
Update:

It actually looks really promising clearance-wise. Alternator relocation is 100% necessary, but otherwise no coil clearance or even EGR clearance issues. I would assume anyone doing this would delete EGR, but it's not a problem either way. The fuel rail mounting studs will not work, so a new fuel rail fastening method will have to be utilized. The TVS clears the hood (although it touches the eat shield/sound deadening) with 1" space under it, so a 1/2" plate, if it could be made to work, would clear no problem. So basically, we're talkijg about an alternator relocation, fuel rail mod, and different TB/intake. Sounds easy enough, I'm doing it.

Will try to find a guinea pig or test it myself. Any interested parties let me know. Will probably make at least 3. Still doing the intercooled version for my car as well.
 

turtleman

Addict
Sep 6, 2009
830
821
Villa Park, IL
Real Name
covid
Just wondering are you mocking this up with a big alternator (G/H body) or regular (W body) one?
The fuel rails - are you saying the fuel rail posts on the LIM are totally unusable like they're covered up by the adapter?
Also where would you look around for a TVS for this setup?

I attached a pdf flyer for a contact I'm trying to get in touch with at edelbrock about their universal tvs units to get info. I want to see how big that 1740 is for fitment purposes. I'm sure they won't be cheap but if it works out really nice I can't say what'll happen..
 

Rent Free

TCG Elite Member
Jan 26, 2015
24,552
20,568
Nowheresville North Dakota
tvs is from the 5.8 trinity engine gt500s if someone can find a cheaper tvs to used id be surprised. even those gt500 tvs take off i are hard to come by.

edit also for the alternator i believe people have used the higher amp cs144 alt? not entirely sure which alt was used id have to dig around for some threads on gpf.net i know snowflake switched his on the regal.
 
Just wondering are you mocking this up with a big alternator (G/H body) or regular (W body) one?
The fuel rails - are you saying the fuel rail posts on the LIM are totally unusable like they're covered up by the adapter?
Also where would you look around for a TVS for this setup?

I attached a pdf flyer for a contact I'm trying to get in touch with at edelbrock about their universal tvs units to get info. I want to see how big that 1740 is for fitment purposes. I'm sure they won't be cheap but if it works out really nice I can't say what'll happen..

I mocked this up on a 2002 SSEi, so presumably the "big" alternator. The camera on my phone is broken and only takes fuzzy pics, but there is no way, no how that the TVS 2300 will fit with an alternator...the body of the TVS extends nearly 4" past where the M90 stops. It's not just a little bit into the alternator, it's a lotta bit. It would possibly fit with a ZZP relocation kit if you cut one of the mounting points off the supercharger and possibly clearance the housing and/or alternator and/or relocation bracket. To demonstrate how much of a problem it is, I did this while changing coolant elbows, so I had the alternator bracket completely unbolted and with it out of the way as far as it would move with the heater hoses and alternator wires still hooked up, I could barely get the TVS pulley into line still.

To answer your second question, the fuel rail mounting studs will have to be removed, otherwise there's no plate to thread into for a couple or more of the M122/TVS mounting holes. They just happen to line up in a few places from my preliminary mock-up. And I found my M122 takeoff on ebay, they have tons of TVSs on there too. Personally, I snagged my TVS from a salvage yard that had a GT500 that had been on fire. Got the sucker for $600 shipped and it's beautiful inside and underneath, just blackened on the exterior and needs blasted or something.

A smaller TVS would absolutely clear the alternator, but if you're having to buy them new, it defeats the purpose because they are stupid expensive and you're definitely stepping into turbo territory as far as total kit cost. This plate would really be more for M122 conversions, I was only fitting it up with the TVS because the M122 is on my car right now. I just shop ebay for take-offs. The TVS take-offs go anywhere from about 1200-2200 depending on what all comes with it and how many miles. The M122s are $500 all day long on ebay. I have seen them go from $350 to around $1000 asking price for ported/pulleyed ones...but there are usually at least a couple on there for a $450-550 buy it now.

I don't know how much less displacement you would have to go with to not have alternator issues, but suffice it to say it would be a lot closer to a stock size. 1740 might do it, since m90s are what, 1474 or so?What changes on these with more displacement is the length of the rotors...overall length is pretty much identical. So bigger displacement blowers have longer rotors and shorter snouts. Think about it...if there are clearance issues with big alternator cars and a Gen V, you know there are going to be issues with 3-4" more of the supercharger housing sticking out in that direction. I do not know if the rate of increase is different in TVS blowers vs the lower helix ones.

Like I discussed before, this problem can be solved by a forward offset of the supercharger, but it has other disadvantages and issues because it would be a significant offset. I had to go around a full inch on my car, in addition to an alternator relocation kit...and even with that, if you wanted to not clearance the supercharger and chop off one of the mount points (a critical one, in my opinion...as it's right at the corner of the outlet and very close to where the belt will be torquing on the supercharger snout), then the plate would run into clearance issues with any traditional alternator relocation bracket you can dream up, or possibly even with the stock alternator bracket itself. As a secondary problem, at 1" of forward offset (which is where my supercharger is currently) you end up with clearance issues with the front fuel rail itself, as well as probably the coils (I don't have them on my car so I can't say for sure...my COP coils are mounted on the valve covers, LS-style). You also end up with more hood clearance issues because the hood slopes down as you come towards the front of the engine bay, especially with respect to the intake elbow/throttle body area.

In other words, the simplest and most workable solution in my opinion, is to move the alternator. I think it will have to move approximately 2" towards the rear of the engine, alternately, you could cut one mount point off the supercharger, and clearance a bit and fit it with just a ZZP alternator relocation bracket. This is what I will be doing on my setup (despite the fact I think it's about as critical of a bolt as there is on that supercharger...I have tensionable 1/4" aircraft cable straps over the top of mine on both ends, so between that and the silicone, I'm not too worried about lifting the snout).

We might be looking at some $$$ for special bolts, especially on the lower, but possibly on both ends depending on what is available locally. The lower will definitely require low clearance allen drive or something to that effect, and the upper will only have 1/2" of threads to fasten into, so the stock supercharger bolts may end up being a little bit too long. Some of the potential solutions I have been looking at are some $3 each, so if we applied that cost to all 20 fasteners involved, we're talking $60.
 
tvs is from the 5.8 trinity engine gt500s if someone can find a cheaper tvs to used id be surprised. even those gt500 tvs take off i are hard to come by.

edit also for the alternator i believe people have used the higher amp cs144 alt? not entirely sure which alt was used id have to dig around for some threads on gpf.net i know snowflake switched his on the regal.

There are usually plenty on ebay. Pricing can be all over the place. It's always going to be considerably higher than the M122s...because the guys selling the M122s are selling them because they are buying a TVS, lol. Or in some cases a KB or whipple or whatnot.

Joker says the 122s can be spun up to well over 20,000 rpms, and the TVS redlines at 18,500. So theoretically the M122 can be pulleyed to make reasonably close to the same power as the TVS, just with more heating of the air. I think the 122 is the game plan here for most people. I mean going from a 3" pulley M90 to a stock M122 is apples to apples...same pulley size and you're going to move 35% more air and probably do so more efficiently. That's roughly 17% more air than you'd move with a maxxed out 2.55" pulley M90, and plenty of smaller pulleys available for the 122 if you want more. I think you're conservatively talking at least 50hp across the board to go from a maxxed M90 to a stock M122. If you assume the parasitic losses will be linear, and do the math on crank HP since you've already presumably accounted for the large bulk of drivetrain losses, then I think we're more in the 80HP neighborhood is what my real guess would be.

So for those who have gone as far as they can go with the M90, and want to spend another $1000 or so for in the neighborhood of 400whp with a "stock" M122, with plenty of room to grow, I think this makes good sense. I might be crazy...but I really want to see this platform get a re-awakening, and I think relatively inexpensive larger supercharger options (that are just going to get cheaper and cheaper as time goes on) is the ticket.

I WILL fit one of these up to as stock of a car as I can find and get some numbers. At this point it's just a matter of having some made up and going and finding some $1,000 L67 car to do it with. I'm tired of the theoretical, and I'm sure you guys are too. I know I get to rambling and get really into my maths. Lol.
 

Rent Free

TCG Elite Member
Jan 26, 2015
24,552
20,568
Nowheresville North Dakota
as ive preached the whole time a simple setup with a m112 or tvs and some e85 could make some real good numbers. hell im at 330whp/400wtq on a gen5 with 2.8 pulley so that being said even my current car with a m112 on a bigger pulley stands to benifit from the sc making less heat alone. i mean even 20 more whp and wtq would put me at the 350whp mark on a small s1x cam. with stock heads even.
 
as ive preached the whole time a simple setup with a m112 or tvs and some e85 could make some real good numbers. hell im at 330whp/400wtq on a gen5 with 2.8 pulley so that being said even my current car with a m112 on a bigger pulley stands to benifit from the sc making less heat alone. i mean even 20 more whp and wtq would put me at the 350whp mark on a small s1x cam. with stock heads even.

Listen, you are absolutely the reason this thread exists and that I am investigating this option at all. You opened my eyes and made me think back to a time when it was all about keeping it cheap and making it work as simply as possible, and I thank you for that. By no means does that mean I agree it's the best way to do it and I am still pursuing the intercooled/direct port version for myself. I do see the merits of a cheap, simple setup and I aim to take this to a testing phase on the most extreme example of that philosophy that I can.

The plan is basically a bone stock L67 car (and probably a really rough one, at that), slap this on there with an m122, the stock 6-rib drive, fab up a ghetto/homemade intake adapter, put a single water injection nozzle to avoid melting my pistons, and throw it on the dyno...91 octane pump gas, stock injectors, no tune, etc. Basically get some worst-case numbers just to see. I will track the cost as well, but I'm shooting for under $1,000 total from stock. From that point I can always swap to E85 or an 8-rib or a real TB or get a good tune on it or whatever and revisit the dyno.

My timeframe on this is let's say by the end of May. If anyone else is interested in being a guinea pig, let me know. I will be making 3 plates, and I would sell one of the extra two at a loss to anyone that promises to dyno or track it this spring/summer so I don't have to go out and buy another car, lol. I am thinking $225 if anyone wants one of this first batch prior to testing and fitment. Will post a rough design by the end of the weekend.
 

Rent Free

TCG Elite Member
Jan 26, 2015
24,552
20,568
Nowheresville North Dakota
absolutlely were on the same page and im anxious to see what happens. i completely understand the benifits of the ic just not a route id take thats my preference over anything else. certainly not knocking it cant argue with the math behind it.

once your ic setup comes to reality the HUGE factor for everyone will be how much more did you invest to make XXX more horsepower?

and lastly i love threads like this because it keeps the platform alive!!
 
the cost of either of them im sure are alot more than even the 5.8 gt500 take off?

is the case smaller in size than the tvs? for the cost of a tvs or m112 im not following why either of those would be a better option?

HARROP | Shop Online

$3080 for something that is for all practical purposes functionally identical to a TVS2300 from the GT500, just with more configurable inlet options.

Rumor has it, new dealer cost on the TVS from Ford is around $1,700 so if you know somebody you might be able to get a deal. I have a contact at a shop that works on a ton of these GT500s for lightly used take-offs for $1,600 each including the inlet elbow. So I agree, I don't see why I would want to build a plate setup for a custom re-licensed version of an eaton blower that is twice the price and special order with some lead time, instead of a factory take-off that is likely to continue coming down in price as time goes on and there are a lot more of them out there, with the added bonus of an already cheap and widely available take-off being available with the exact same dimensions. I mean the TVS has only been on two years of GT500 at this point, it's a wonder they are as cheap as they are, but in time they will definitely come down more.

I know there are fitment issues with either the M122 or TVS. But really, figuring out a TB isn't going to be a huge issue. Joker has one for $4-500 that is the biggest, highest-flowing unit I have ever seen for these (and I shopped quite a bit when I was originally buying my blower). Granted, that's not cheap but if it's considered an upgrade as well and not just something required to make the supercharger work, then I would consider it justifiable. The only real question is if the TPS will work with a 3800 computer, and that's one I intend to answer very soon.
 
Update:

Acquired a 1998 Regal GS for $500. It's rough, and miled-out. If I can make good power out of a low cost adapter plate setup on this thing, then it will definitely be a good proof of concept. My plates for my twincharged buick are on the way, so after I verify fitment, I will get the design modded for the one-piece adapter to put my M122 on this regal. The plan is:

1998 Regal GS: $500
M122 supercharger $500
Adapter plate: (hopefully $300)
Water/Methanol injection $200

Total budget: $1,500

I am going to run this setup as a worst-case, absolute barebones setup with stock fuel pump, stock injectors, stock throttle body and MAF, no tune. The water/meth injection will just be cheap insurance so I don't blow everything to hell. I would estimate 2 months until I have the plates and everything up and going and then I'll get it on the dyno and see what I can do. If I can't reasonably support that blower with stock fuel, I will possibly have to ramp up the budget and get a pump, regulator, and/or injectors...but I'd like to see how far I can get with the bare minimum first.
 

Rent Free

TCG Elite Member
Jan 26, 2015
24,552
20,568
Nowheresville North Dakota
still in for a non ic adapter plate. i like the 300 adapter plate est hopefully even less for the non ic version.
hell depending on how this goes i may still be tempted to ditch the turbo kit i have and run the simple cam blower setup on e85 and spray the bajeebus out of it lol.

in for results and keep chewing away at this project. same with the guys doing 4t80 swaps i really see this as a cost effective setup if people are frugal when looking for the m122 or even tvs!
 
still in for a non ic adapter plate. i like the 300 adapter plate est hopefully even less for the non ic version.
hell depending on how this goes i may still be tempted to ditch the turbo kit i have and run the simple cam blower setup on e85 and spray the bajeebus out of it lol.

in for results and keep chewing away at this project. same with the guys doing 4t80 swaps i really see this as a cost effective setup if people are frugal when looking for the m122 or even tvs!

Yeah, I think a single non-ic plate is going to run 300-400. If we were doing like 5 at a time, it might come down to like 200-250. Again, I don't know how much other stuff will have to be done for fitment, specifically with alternator and hood clearance, but we'll see.
 
dont care about altenator and and doubt this will take up any more room than people running a full suze ic and gen5. space cradle and cars on coilovers so doubt clearance would an issue either.

dont you have a mp122 on a 3800 now that the hood shuts on?

I have a 122 on there now, yes. and the mounting flange is 2.25" above the lower intake manifold due to intercooler. However, I also have 3 inch cradle spacers, and it does rub the hood insulation. Do not underestimate how insane of an amount of spacing that is. ZZPs are like 5/16". Mine are almost 10x as thick. With a 1/2" adapter plate (which is pretty darn minimal...not much thread engagement there), with no spacers it will sit approximately 1.25" higher than my current setup does. I doubt it will clear any hood without supercharger modification/clearancing or hood clearancing, or cradle spacers. In this case, I will be modifying the supercharger housing for better clearance, and a more appropriate throttle body entry. It may or may not clear without spacers, but I will report back on that when we get there.

My test fit on a bonneville that I happened to be doing a lower intake gasket on, the hood shut, but definitely was touching the supercharger. So I assume at least some cradle spacing will probably be necessary in most cases.
 

Rent Free

TCG Elite Member
Jan 26, 2015
24,552
20,568
Nowheresville North Dakota
caged car has fiberglass pin on hood that i could set the rear hood pins up a little if need be and not a chance in hell id cut up a fiberglass hood if push come to shove id put a stocker back on and hack that up blower through the hood. function > form

i could care less what it looks like id like to swing for 10s thats about all im after.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 90 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant. Consider starting a new thread to get fresh replies.

Thread Info