Tesla Says FU to the Camera; Uses Radar for AutoPilot Instead

Mike K

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This is a pretty interesting paradigm shift for AutoPilot. Currently the system is comprised of three main sensors:

  • Sonar
  • Radar
  • Video Camera

The primary sensor for AutoPilot is currently the camera. It picks up the lanes, identifies cars, objects, etc. Radar spaces the car out between itself and the vehicle in front of it and the sonar sensors detect objects in a 16 foot bubble surrounding the car. So if someone is merging into they see that. Otherwise they are a distant third as far as information goes and you can actually engage Autopilot without them.

The problem with the camera is at sunset when theres light being shined directly into it, or on rainy and foggy days. The bigger problem is the camera just isn't as good at determining what things are. On the flip side, radar can see through fog, rain, sun, etc but throws up a lot of false negatives. Elon said in his notes that radar might perceive the curved bottom of a coke can as being a truck which is why it can't be relied upon for heavy lifting... Until now.

The Change

As of the next firmware version Tesla is now giving the radar sensor equal decision making power in auto-pilot mode. There is no need for new hardware. It is purely a software change. Tesla says they've fixed the false negative problem two ways:

1. They have a new driver that lets them get a higher resolution "picture" from the existing sensor.

2. This is the cool one: They will use the existing fleet of Tesla cars to determine whether or not an object detected by radar is indeed an object or just something else like a street sign.

The way it works is that as existing cars pass a point on the road where the radar determines there is a threat, the car will record how the person driving the vehicle responds to the threat versus how the car would have responded were it relying on radar alone. So if I pass a street sign and the radar sees that as an object in the road, as I pass by the sign without braking that specific area will be whitelisted so that other Teslas know when they pass that specific in that specific area with that specific radar signature that it's not a threat and the car can ignore the false positive. Presumably until there is enough data the cars will work the way they work now by acknowledging the threat and then referencing the camera to determine whether or not it's actionable.

The advantage here is that Elon says the new system will bounce under or through other cars so that AutoPilot now not only sees the car in front of you but also the car in front of that one. So if the person two cars in front of you slams on their brakes and the guy in front of you doesn't see it, your car still will see it.

The other big issue is that it addresses situations that the current system is apparently designed to ignore. For instance, the situation where the guy watching Harry Potter was cut off by a big rig and he crashed into it's trailer, the existing system sees that with the camera and assumes it's looking at a highway overpass sign. The updated system would actually see that as a threat and stop the car.

It's a pretty intuitive way of making the best of the sensors you already have as well improving the system.

Also, since this forum isn't about cars any more, Hillary sucks and I think every American should be disarmed. Also I like boats and 15 year old GM trucks. That should get things started.
 

sickmint79

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so for false positives it will record what it wanted to do, observe and capture what the driver did, and eventually have a big repository to access when someone goes autopilot, then use that to to determine *in that specific area* whether to act evasively or not based on past history?

i guess i'm curious about how many false positives it actually has, how much is necessary to capture before it becomes safe enough, etc. is it just marking that thing there as a false one or is it actually learning how to identify something is false? are there situations where something is usually false but could then become a threat? or could drivers not ignoring threats do the opposite and teach it to ignore things it ought not?
 

Sprayin

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Also, since this forum isn't about cars any more, Hillary sucks and I think every American should be disarmed. Also I like boats and 15 year old GM trucks. That should get things started.

:rofl: :rofl: So true.

That is a pretty interesting solution on Teslas part. Typically I would've expected the technology to grow with the hardware. It's a pretty clever idea.
 

Rent Free

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military has been using a similar system for ied detection since at least 2005ish when i was there.

the system would create a 3d virtual map of the route and record everything. then whitewash or overlap the screen for an area or building or car or patch in the road that wasnt there before.

the next time a convoy would go through those areas would show up as whitewashed as an area to be concerned about.

EOD had all kinds of cool tech to play with.
 

Rent Free

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posted a thread on this a while back but it relates to this by creating an alogorithm or in this case false positives to best "predict" what is stationary or not.

getting into how an incredibily sophisticated alogorithm was used to build an artificial intelligence (AI) simulator to defeat a fighter pilot in a dogfight. beating the fighter pilot by learning and predicting his manuvers.

AI Outmaneuvers a Fighter Pilot in a Virtual Dogfight

none of the tech being used above by Tesla is new or cutting edge, but applying it to a civilian automobile is.
 

Lord Tin Foilhat

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Infinitis used to set off my detectors when I used them. I assumed it was their radar?
Doubtful unless you have a cheap detector. More then likely it was K bands near by bouncing off the vehicle onto your detector. False alarms are inevitable with consumer equipment and lots of things even not related to radar could set it off. One radar detector I had would set off Laser every time I hit the horn :rofl: and that was a high end escort. So who knows is the true answer.

Cops typically use Ka and Laser. Rarely you see k anymore.
 

Turbocharged400sbc

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Your title is misleading as hell since what they are doing is giving the radar sensor more weight to the decision tree than it did previously. Which obviously means that the camera is no longer "trusted" (weighted) as much as it had before.

It would be hilarious to see Radar from the old 4077 piloting your Tesla. With one of those frilly hats that you two would probably be wearing.

:mikek:
 

Mike K

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Apr 11, 2008
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Every radar detector on the market gets more useless the more that cars use radar.

How strong will the radar be? Cancer risk?

Intelligent cruise control systems are all radar. It's already ubiquitous.

so for false positives it will record what it wanted to do, observe and capture what the driver did, and eventually have a big repository to access when someone goes autopilot, then use that to to determine *in that specific area* whether to act evasively or not based on past history?

i guess i'm curious about how many false positives it actually has, how much is necessary to capture before it becomes safe enough, etc. is it just marking that thing there as a false one or is it actually learning how to identify something is false? are there situations where something is usually false but could then become a threat? or could drivers not ignoring threats do the opposite and teach it to ignore things it ought not?

So the way I read it is that the system will basically always be on, even when AutoPilot is off. So if I'm driving, the car is constantly identifying obstacles, false positives, etc.

If radar sees something it thinks is a truck and it wants to stop, it will record the radar signature for that exact object, note that it wants to stop and then see what I do. If I pass it and don't jam on the breaks then it assumes it's safe, geotags the location, adds that object to a whitelist and now next time a Tesla passes it it will know it's nothing.

Two things to note here:

1. I have no idea how many cars it takes to pass an object before it's deemed safe.

2. Tesla is using multiple images to identify each object and also using what they call "point cloud". I don't know if that's a Tesla term or an actual thing. The radar sensors gets 10 snapshots per second. By comparing snapshots the car can better identify where something is relative to where the car thinks it should be if it was stationary versus moving. By doing they are able to both more accurately identify objects for the database but more importantly, prevent false positives.

:rofl: :rofl: So true.

That is a pretty interesting solution on Teslas part. Typically I would've expected the technology to grow with the hardware. It's a pretty clever idea.

It's weird. It's a complete deviation from where everyone thought they were going to go. The X has been shipping with a housing that accommodates two cameras and recent Model S's have also been shipping with two camera housings, just with one side covered. So everyone speculated that the next move was stereo cameras and instead Tesla basically went the other way and said FU to the camera.

I wonder how much of this has to do with them going separate ways with Mobil-Eye, the company that made the Autopilot hardware. One of MobileEye's complaints was that they didn't really have much say in how their hardware was being used.

Your title is misleading as hell since what they are doing is giving the radar sensor more weight to the decision tree than it did previously. Which obviously means that the camera is no longer "trusted" (weighted) as much as it had before.

Well eventually it appears the radar is going to have say over the camera. So they are significantly reducing the camera's workload. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of that system and see how it operates. As far as hardware goes, it's comically simplistic for a system that is completely in control of your car but also equally impressive is the complexity of the software that runs it.
 

sickmint79

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i wonder how dependent it is on a good connection once up and running? or at some point do they just have a large repository they are able to occasionally blast out?

the real question is whether it needs to access this data repository or if it ultimately uses it to learn from and has smarter future behavior as a result.
 

radioguy6

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No they don't. Cop radars run at different frequencies then car detection systems.

Every new Cadillac, Acura, Buick, Audi I come across sets off my 9500ix with K band. I'm getting tired of it, probably going to disable K since its becoming quite annoying. It all depends on the car manufacturer, but many of these nanny systems use K band.

I know cops primarily use Ka and LIDAR, but some still use K. Escort's new detectors are programmed to block most of these frequencies.
 

Chester Copperpot

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No they don't. Cop radars run at different frequencies then car detection systems.

Then explain why every new Suburban/Escalade that I pass sets off my V1 like a Christmas tree. I get infinitely more false alerts from other vehicles with lane departure/impact prevention than I do actually being scoped out by cops. Ran the serial numbers and my unit is up to date except for a software update. That update can supposedly fix the logic with false alerts but I'm hesitant an $80 software change can change physics.

Every new Cadillac, Acura, Buick, Audi I come across sets off my 9500ix with K band. I'm getting tired of it, probably going to disable K since its becoming quite annoying. It all depends on the car manufacturer, but many of these nanny systems use K band.

I know cops primarily use Ka and LIDAR, but some still use K. Escort's new detectors are programmed to block most of these frequencies.

+11ty
 

Mike K

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How much storage and bandwidth will all this take up learning what's a false positive and what's actually a risk?

I get the cool part of it just being a software update but wouldn't you think they would work on a hardware upgrade as part of future upgrades?

They absolutely are but Tesla being Tesla, they constantly improve what they already have out there. But the cars are showing up with space and wiring for two cameras and there have been photos of test mules with LIDAR pucks on top of them.

i wonder how dependent it is on a good connection once up and running? or at some point do they just have a large repository they are able to occasionally blast out?

I think it will be like google maps: it loads a certain area around the vehicle so if you lose signal for a moment you're not boned.

the real question is whether it needs to access this data repository or if it ultimately uses it to learn from and has smarter future behavior as a result.[/QUOTE]

Speculation on my part here but as the system currently is designed to defer to the camera if radar gives a false positive, I assume it would continue to do so in the event it doesn't have data for a specific area or can't access the database.

Hi Mike K, do you have a link or links for the original post?

Sure, here you go. It's a bit of a nerd read.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-autopilot-seeing-world-radar
 

jason05gt

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The Elon Garage:bowrofl:This is cool tech and as Tesla sells more cars it will become more relevant. With not a lot of Tesla cars on the road, the radar mapping will be limited or obsolete based on different conditions.

What if the driver doesn't react? For example, how does the system know the difference between a cardboard box vs. an appliance (bad example) in the road.
 

Mike K

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The Elon Garage:bowrofl:This is cool tech and as Tesla sells more cars it will become more relevant. With not a lot of Tesla cars on the road, the radar mapping will be limited or obsolete based on different conditions.

What if the driver doesn't react? For example, how does the system know the difference between a cardboard box vs. an appliance (bad example) in the road.

A cardboard box shows as opaque on radar I believe. So the car wouldn't react. An appliance would be an obvious positive though. Keep in mind the database is inclusionary, not exclusionary. So if it has data it will use it and if it doesn't it will likely respond as it would now.

The big underlying theme is you're still in control of the car. You should be paying attention. This is an argument I'm having with people on the Tesla forums who are complaining about Tesla disabling AutoPilot until you park the car if you ignore three "hold the wheel" nags in a row.
 

sickmint79

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A cardboard box shows as opaque on radar I believe. So the car wouldn't react. An appliance would be an obvious positive though. Keep in mind the database is inclusionary, not exclusionary. So if it has data it will use it and if it doesn't it will likely respond as it would now.

The big underlying theme is you're still in control of the car. You should be paying attention. This is an argument I'm having with people on the Tesla forums who are complaining about Tesla disabling AutoPilot until you park the car if you ignore three "hold the wheel" nags in a row.

are these like non-technical people who believe everything in movies or what? i'd like to think anyone who can afford a tesla actually has the brains to not trust it without fail but hey, maybe some are the strongest followers in the cult of musk.
 

Lord Tin Foilhat

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are these like non-technical people who believe everything in movies or what? i'd like to think anyone who can afford a tesla actually has the brains to not trust it without fail but hey, maybe some are the strongest followers in the cult of musk.
Lots of dumb people have more money then they should lol
 

Mike K

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are these like non-technical people who believe everything in movies or what? i'd like to think anyone who can afford a tesla actually has the brains to not trust it without fail but hey, maybe some are the strongest followers in the cult of musk.

Quite the contrary. It's PILOTS making this argument. So people with extensive training in oh shit situations who are making just horrible calls in judgement.

I made the point that the ones that were complaining the most were likely the ones that needed the additional nannies the most. I mean, they know the hardware limitations of the system and apparently don't care. They just don't want their hands on the wheel. Speaking as someone with a decent amount of seat time with AutoPilot, having your hand off the wheel is a novelty that grows old approximately 18 seconds after you first do it. After that all you do is rest your hand on the bottom and it's fine but nope, apparently these guys need to have both hands crossed and rested in their lap or Elon is personally robbing them.
 
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